FailZero and supressors...

To clarify from the beginning, this is NOT a complaint thread. Just observations.

As many of you know, we in Washington state finally had the law changed so that we may actually use our legally owned supressors.

In celebration of this, several large supressor shoots were held in various locations around the state. I attended the one on the Kitsap peninsula with my M4 “frankenabortion”, Gemtech M4-96D, Beretta 92fs and Gemtech G9.

For this shoot, I installed a recently aquited FZ complete BCG, and hadn’t cleaned or lubed the rifle for approx 500 rounds. of non-supressor shooting prior.

During the 2 hours I was there, a friend and I fired approximatly 600 rounds through the rifle, all suppressed, and ended up carbon welding the supressor to the bi-lock. I was unable to remove the supressor at the range, and took it home for cleaning.

Info: The rifle is a Stag/CMT upper, lower, FCG, reciever extension, and buffer, a Bushhamster M4 barrel (1/9) 14.5 inch with permanently attached bi-lock. This rifle has approx 8000 to 10000 rounds down the pipe,most semi, some (somewhere around 1000 to 2000 rounds) FA on the upper receiver only as I loaned it to a local type 7 SOT for some shooting several times(also the reason for the approximation of the round count).

Issues: had 5 failures to lock back on the last round. Three times were with my friend who was there with me and was with his ammunition and magazines. Ammo was Bvac bulk, and the magazines were two FDE Pmags and a single USGI aluminum. I experienced two similar situations with USGI Okay brand magazines. All malfunctions took place near the end of our shooting session, and were followed by several other magazines that locked back the BCG just fine. Other then that, it ran like a top. By this point, the rifle was hot enough that it was too hot to touch even the upper reciever much less the barrel or the can. As it were, the can was putting off so much heat that it was causing visual interferrence in sighting on the targets.

Observations: Gun was filthy as a 3 dollar whore after a three day weekend with no shower. Hand cycling the rifle felt gritty as a gravel road. Was able to remove the M4-96D by hammering it off with a derlin armorers block, a fair amount of solvent, and lots of elbow grease.

After disassembly, I noticed several impacts on the circumference of the buffer that matched up perfectly in shape to the buffer retainer pin. This is brand new wear, never seen before. Doesn’t affect function though. Makes me wonder if the carrier may have been machined just a tad too short and is allowing the buffer to come too far forward and impact the buffer retainer pin. Dissapointing if true.

About the FZ BCG: I had read many review claiming that fouling simply wipes off and cleaning baked on carbon buildup from the rear of the bolt was super easy. I found none of this to be true.

I had to scrub the crap out of the BCG, and it still won’t get completely cleaned. As in it looks like the entire BCG is stained so it’s a kind of gunmetal grey color. Scraping carbon from the end of the bolt required just as much work as before on the non NB BCG that was in it previous.

The rest of the rifle took far longer to clean then normal due to excessinve carbon buildup, but I expected this so it’s no big deal. Some caked on fouling in the upper had to be removed with a brass brush because the plastic mil-issue cleaning kit brush simply wouldn’t touch it. Cleaner used was Lucas feul injector cleaner. I’ve been using this for awhile because it simply eats away carbon as that is what it’s job is on engine valves and it works great on guns and is way less smelly then most gun cleaning solvents. Works best if applied and let sit for a little bit. It will creep and soak into fouling and break it up.

Conclusions: Frankly, I don’t care about the new, non super-silver color of the BCG. It was too shiny in my opinion to begin with. Now it just looks like a heavily worn standard BCG. No big deal especially considering that it still feel just as slick now as it did when new and continued working under those conditions. As advertised, none of the NB flaked off or was worn off, just discolored.

Insofar as the failures to lock back, because the rifle continued to work fine after those incidents and locked back on several more magazines and the brass ejection remained consistent throughout the shooting session, I really have no idea what caused the issues. Could be shitty ammo that my friend supplied ( he supplied all of the ammunition we shot that day) some excessive carbon buildup somewhere, etc. My bet is on the heavy fouling and lack of lube. as the ammo was ejecting very consistently during the shoot whenever observed.

I checked the buffer roll pin to see if it was working it’s way out and binding on the buffer spring and found it to be fine. Carrier key was plenty tight and staked properly. Gas rings were all brand new at the beginning of the shoot.

Weapon was cleaned and lubed with marine wheel bearing grease, and after dealing with a family thing this morning, a return to the range resulted in the following: Rifle function fine unsupressed and supressed through 8 magazines with zero issues. After verifying zero with the can, was hitting an 8 inch steel plate at 150 yards shooting approx 1 round per second and hitting every round out of a complete magazine. Shooting done from the bench.

My prognosis is that the FZ BCG can be run dry under “normal” conditions, even in some difficult conditions, but even it will have minor issues when all lube is burned off, the gun is frikken filthy, and being run with a supressor. To be honest, I believe that with the original BCG in place, the gun would have failed much much earlier considering how dirty it was. As noted earlier, when cleaned, I lubed like I normally do. Just because the FZ BCG can be run dry, doesn’t mean that it should be. All moving metal parts work better with lube no matter what they are made from or coated with.

Final FYI: This rifle is a build of my own. In those 8 to 10K rounds it has down the pipe, I have not had a single failure caused by the gun previous to this. This is a beater rifle and gets used regularly in training where it has been subjected to shitty weather conditions, mud, extreme fouling, etc. and it runs like a typewriter. Truly is my go-to gun and after it proved itself, I would take this over a new Colt any day of the week simply because I know it works no matter what.

post script: The most difficult part to clean was the outside of the supressor and the end of the barrel. After shooting his first few magazines, my friend laid the rifle down on the carpet covered bench without thinking and melted a bunch of the nylon carpeting to the supressor and barrel. Was a fucking bear to remove. I didn’t make him clean it because he supplied the ammo for the days festivities.

I have two of the FZ BCG’s. I have learned over time, that the “Wipes clean after shooting” statement, is only true if you run the gun wet. If you run a FZ dry and allow the carbon to bake on, you might as well bust out the dental picks and scour pads.

post script: The most difficult part to clean was the outside of the supressor and the end of the barrel. After shooting his first few magazines, my friend laid the rifle down on the carpet covered bench without thinking and melted a bunch of the nylon carpeting to the supressor and barrel. Was a fucking bear to remove. I didn’t make him clean it because he supplied the ammo for the days festivities.

Same thing happened to me with my first 556 can. I ended up just dumping a few mags through it next time I was out and wiping the melted carptet off with a couple shop rags.

The reason that the bolt didn’t lock back on the last round is most likely do to the fact that the BCG is going to fast. BM barrels are WAAAAY over gassed. Then you couple that with a suppressor (which basically doubles the amount of pressure) and you have a really fast moving BCG.

I don’t think you mentioned what buffer and spring you are using, but I would go with an H3 and a RED Tactical Spring Co CS buffer spring. This will slow things down a bit.

All BCG’s need cleaned and lubed (no matter the finish). So when you had about 500rds in the gun, that would have been a good time.

It is true that some finishes will allow you to get away with this for longer, but at the end of the day, you aren’t doing yourself any favors (which you found out).

C4

I’ve found that after a few hundred rnds the carbon does wipe off my FZ bcg except the bolt tail but to this point it has scraped off rather easily

Even before I bought the FZ carrier, I figured that “wipes clean with just a rag” really means “wipes cleaner with just a rag” and I haven’t been disappointed. If you want to keep your weapon free of carbon fouling, it’s easier if you do a lot of little cleanings than one big one

600 rounds of supressed fire is a tall order for any gun. A malf here and there should be expected with that kind of heat and filth.

In addition to what Grant stated, I can tell you for a fact that a Bushmaster barrel with that many rounds through it has a gas port the size of Venessa Del Rio’s hole. I was examining gas ports a couple of years back in BM carbines that probably had less than that through them and the port was “egged” out.

Add the suppressor to it and you’re getting a shitload of gas through that thing.

Legal can use in WA state is still pretty new, and there are a lot of people that are going to be fine tuning things for awhile. Blow back, heavy cleaning regiments, and baffle strikes are things that are going to suddenly start popping up in circles where there weren’t previously any issues.

I can’t wait to get an osprey for my fnp tactical, now we just need to get SBR’s legal here in Washington. I think there will be a learning curve for us though, although I think there are quite a few guys that we’re shooting suppressed long before it was legal.

I know I would have been. :slight_smile:

It’s for the children. Wouldn’t want them to get hearing loss from being near the guns.

Agreed, and you can tell the stupid ones as they brag about it.

I take a slight issue with this statement. I used to live in Washington state. And though I agree the law was stupid and poorly written, I knew people who shot their suppressors OUTSIDE of Washington in Oregon and Idaho.

So it’s not necessarily true that people were doing in within the state of Washington.

Iraq I think you may have misinterpreted what I was saying a bit. Im not saying everyone who owned one shot it illegally, just that there were A LOT of people who did.

Grant: Forgot the buffer specs. Standard carbine spring and H2 buffer. An extra tidbit of info: The BCG that FZ used is a Toolcraft Inc. setup which, if I remember the thread here on M4C, they are an FN contractor.

Insofar as being over gassed, I generally keep a good eye on the ejection patterns so as to know when spring maintinence needs to take place. This rifle has always ejected to about the 3:30/4:30 position unsupressed (still did this weekend when tested without the supressor and clean), and to about the 2;00/2:30 supressed. Nothing was amiss ejection wise during the shoots this weekend. Not sure if it was bolt speed, filth, or something else that caused the failures. If it were bolt speed, I would suspect that the issue would be worse once the gun is cleaned and lubed properly, but that wasn’t the case.

I wouldn’t be suprised if the gas port is a bit excessive at this point as IG points out, although like I mentioned, I haven’t had any over gas issues with the rifle prior to this. I regularly maintinence the rifle and change springs sometimes even before I figure there will be an issue simply because this is my “go to” rifle. This means that I regularly
have all the springs up to spec and the rifle hasn’t shown any change in behavior that might be caused by excessive gas port issues as time goes by and all things are returned to spec.

All of that being said, given the extremes of the situation and that the rifle continued to function despite the filth of the previous 500 rounds and the additional 600 supressed (which as MarkM pointed out is a tall order for a rifle under normal contitions), and the fact that it continued to run perfectly again after cleaning, I must say that i’m quite happy with FZ products so far and would reccomend them to anybody.

FYI post script:

For what it’s worth, I have family in Oregon(my home state as well, born and raised there, still trying to figure out why I was dumb enough to leave) and have plenty of rounds through the can during visits, I have just never run it this many rounds prior to cleaning the rifle… I bought the can used with no waranty (and it’s prior owner bought it as a factory blemished can for cheaper then normal) and treat it as a “beater” item just like the rifle. I even stopped keeping track of it’s round count at this point. I’ll just shoot it until it fails and then replace it. It also already has a couple of minor baffle strikes but don’t really care as it still sounds the same as a virtually new M4-96D owned by a friend when shot side by side.

The can has also cracked the laser weld between the mounting software and the main body of the can, and there is even a very slight buldge around the circumference of the supressor up near the endcap (cause unknown). Since it’s not under waranty, I’ll just keep shooting the hell out of it. The buldge hasn’t gotten any worse in the last 2k rounds shot through it. Despite all of these issues, it runs great and still works fine so I frankly don’t care…

I have run the supressor pretty hard before, although never to the tune of 600 rounds at a shot, and i’ve even had it so hot once(took about 200 rounds in semi) that it was glowing red and you could tell where the baffles were inside by the slightly darker rings in the red, yet it has never failed to do what it’s supposed to do. Gemtech did right when they made this can.

For the record, the reason for my actions this weekend was to see if the FZ BCG works as advertized rather then a supressor test. I already know that the supressor will work, and that as a whole (with the original BCG, given even sparse maintinence with continued added lube, the rifle will do it’s part as well.

Lastly, the charging handle is a PRI gasbuster. I’ve shoot with it before, just not to this extent. By the end of the session, there was still a fair bit of carbon on my face. Considering some of the stories i’ve read about PRI gas busters failing under hard use, I’m really considering just going BCM gunfighter and doing the RTV silicone route.

I don’t lube my SBR equipped out a FZ BCG simply out of spite. Cleaned mine last night for the first time in just under 3k because I got it to choke after a 500+ round training session on Saturday. Anyway, it takes over 2k rounds before it starts choking out (even though, yes, it feels like it’s going to stop any moment when hand cycling). During a shoot last summer when it started failing (it was ~2.5k rounds in since last maintenance) I simply scraped carbon off with a knife and tossed it back in the gun. Ran like a top.

I think the only reason mine chokes after 2k rounds is because it’s way overgassed. Legion has a rifle with ~5k rounds through it, no cleaning no lube IIRC but it’s a fullsize rifle all FZ’d out and unsuppressed.

Anyway, it’s mostly an academic discussion because for normal use, you’ll have many opportune times to add a few drops of oil every several hundred rounds. Hence why my, ‘fullsize’ carbines still run regular old BCG’s and not FZ’d ones.

Absolutly.

I highly doubt that I will ever be in such a situation that would require the kind of performance that I asked of the rifle this weekend.

I’m kind of goofy like that though. Although I read the reviews of new products and how well some of them work, once I take the step to purchase one, I must test it to know for sure so I do things like what I did this weekend. I like to know things rather then simply think things.

Thanks all for the interesting replies. Always something to be learned.

I lube my Fail Zero BCG just as much as a normal one. Lube is cheap and it doesn’t hurt anything.

A “bit excessive” is the understatement of the century. Mil-Spec GP size on a 14.5" M4 is .063. Your GP size can be as high is .083!

So while you think your gun is behaving normally, it really isn’t. You just don’t have a mil-spec gun to reference it to.

C4