FAIL: The idea, creation, and failure of a target for .223 rifle

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

Well,

I had been seeing the inexpensive reflex targets in catalogs for small caliber rifle (.22) and pistols and thought I could do better and make one for use with the AR platform.

In my ignorance of the round, I really thought that by using 5/8" plate I could make a decent steel target that would take a hit and spin, therefor absorbing the blow with no major damage.

So I went out Sunday morning and got 3 feet of 1" and 1.25" diam pipe to use as my “hinge” and I have plenty of scrap tubing and plate. I own a 250 amp welder, a large plasma, a band saw and a torch. Metel is something I can manipulate easily.

So I started cutting and welding and I was very happy with my results. I went out the back of the garage and paced out about 20 yards (First part of the FAIL) and decided to test the target for function. I had welded on only 2 of the 8" drops and one of the 5"x8" plates for the test.

I started with 9mm FMJ:
This worked well, the round strikes the target and spins the target as expected. No adverse reactions and no damage at all to the surface of the plate.

So next comes the M4 with some Wolf .223 55gr FMJ:
This worked well, the rounds striking the plate and spinning the target as expected. It was upon the last round fired that the true FAIL mentioned earlier came up to “bite” me. A fragment of the FMJ came straight back and stuck in my right bicept. I am a lefty rifle shooter, so my right bicept is facing the target. Also, walking up to the target after the last round, the plate is nearly perforated! No good.

This is a look at the back side of the plate, it appears close to punching completely through the plate! This is honestly not what I expected to see happen!

So, after cleaning the wound and discussing the resulting failure of the palte to absorb the .223 rounds, I finished the target and will use it for pistols and .22L (Ruger 10/22) shooting only.

Is there no way to make a target system similar to this that can withstand the strike of the .223, or is the round just flat out too fast to work with something such as this? If I used 1" plate, would it still punch massive creaters into the surface?

Anyone that may have tried this and found success, please share your experiance.

My wound is a very small punture with a short slice coming off, not a big deal… but the wound could have been my face or who knows what. I admit stupidity in pacing out 20 yards for this test. For the rifle I should have went out 50 yards minimum.

Live and learn.

2

do not shoot steel with a centerfire rifle less than 100 yrds.

your problem most likely is not thickness but hardness. look for some AR500 plate. 3/8" is thick enough. 223 will still ‘crater’ it a little at 100 and even 200 yrds but it will still last a long time.

do not shoot the plate up close with handgun after cratering the surface with a rifle.

3

One of the rules in shooting steel (even with rifle rated steel) with a centerfire carbine caliber (.223 or 7.62AK) is to stay at least 25 yds back.

Another rule in shooting steel is NEVER shoot any steel that’s been cratered. The craters will cause ricochet and even bounce back.

Get you a rifle rated steel target. MGM’s “stab and shoot” popper shaped steel target is one of the simplest target for rifle. Just “stab” it into the dirt and shoot it all day long. Again, stay back a minimum of 25 yds.

http://www.mgmtargets.com/products/product_page.php?cat=15

Pepper Popper with “Stab and Shoot” base
Part Number: PPSTAB

This target was developed for some of our special forces units that required a target that would be durable, easy to place on a range, and easy to retrieve. Perfect for all terrain, this target is extremely easy to set up. Just Stab it into the ground and Shoot! Designed with a flat top so it can be easily hammered into the ground if necessary.

Price: $291.00 ea

4

I have a cute scar under my chin from an improperly hardened plate. You need to make sure to the best of your ability that your targets are hardened to Brinnel 500…

5

You can shoot steel plate targets at that distance with .223, but you can’t shoot anything with anything. It’s much safer to shoot steel targets that are angled to deflect fragments toward the ground (the top of the target should be closer to you than the bottom, and be ABSOLUTELY SURE you are using FRANGIBLE ammo. You don’t want to shoot anything else at close range (which I know you are well aware of due to the bicep injury).

Here are some pictures of some that I hear work pretty well (never used them myself), but it should give you some ideas on how to design yours for use with frangible ammo.

http://www.vikingtactics.com/targets.html

6

I shoot rifle gongs at 40-50 yards all the time. Inside of that range, I’ll switch to a low ricochet projectile.

I have a bunch of AR450 plate that was given to me and it pocks a little with each round… maybe 1/8". They get chewed up pretty bad after months of use. But since the gongs were free, and I don’t shoot them around a bunch of people, I use them for rifle. I’ve never had even a small frag come back on me in thousands of rounds of use.

I use the same gongs for pistol, but I simply turn them around for the smooth side.

7

Angle of the targets matters too. If they are at 90* vertically to the ground and/or line of the shot you’re more likely to get ricochet back at you. If I was using those “stab and shoot” targets above I would not stab them in at 90* but instead so that they leaned a little forward towards the shooter.

I shot some targets on a USBP range years ago that were simple steel circles with two rebar hooks on the back, hung from what appeared to be an old soccer goal. Worked great because the size of the hooks meant the steel plates hung with the face angled down. I’m going to have some 1/2 size IDPA targets made up like this and am working on a suspension system that will work with our standard IDPA target stands.

8

I may revisit this with another set of plates mounted on the “hinge” bar sticking straight up. Not to shoot at per-say, but to neutralize the weight of the lower plate and make it more willing to spin out of the way. That may make a large change in how effective the round will be at transmitting energy into the steel plate, it may make it so that the energy rotates the plate long before enough energy is transfered to do the damage.

This is my arm, like I said… it is not a bad injury, but it could have been bad depending on where I got hit and how large of a chunk bounced back.

9

Angled towards the ground is definitely ideal for keeping splatter into the ground, but I’ve never had any issue with my gongs that hang vertically. And I’m talking thousands and thousands of rounds on chewed up gongs.

10

although steel is more fun, maybe these might be a better option? at least for .223

11

I’ve never been hit by my own rounds either. However I have seen LOTS of spectators or shooters on other stages hit. To the point that IMHO it’s a forgone conclusion that people are going to be hit whenever we bring out steel that sits vertically.

12

For those not aware, I have some extensive experience with ricochets coming back off of steel and hitting me.

Last November I had a round hit a cratered, mild carbon steel target holder (the actual target was a cardboard IPSC target, not steel gongs) and hit me in the leg. I was firing at a distance of about 7 yards when the incident happened.

The round passed between my tibia and fibula and lodged it’s self about 3.5 inches into my left leg. I was off my feet for weeks, and the projectile is still in there.

X-rays reveal that the round, which was a 55gr .223 Wolf Military Classic, basically retained it’s full weight and only slightly deformed when it hit, and bounced back off of the target…

Lessons learned:

  1. “One in a million” chances can and do happen. I wasn’t shooting at the steel specifically, but it was downrange and therefor should have been considered more carefully. The piece that the round hit was a diagonal support beam about 2 feet behind the target. It was angled at about 45 degrees toward the ground. In theory the bullet should have hit and gotten sent toward the ground. It didn’t…

  2. Wolf = steel. Plain and simple. Copper washed steel is still steel. You can clearly see that projectile slightly deformed, but that was it. I still firmly believe if I had been firing PMC Bronze or XM193 that day this probably wouldn’t have happened.

  3. Even target holders should be constructed of AR500 or some other high strength steel. The fact that the support beam was cratered was one of the main culprits here. Had I been using wood this wouldn’t have happened.

  4. Getting shot hurts like a bitch, stupid hurts. I won’t make this mistake again.

I think the fact that the projectile and the target holder were probably similar in strength which created an elastic collision where neither deformed greatly and therefor the kinetic energy of the projectile was maintained. Kinetic energy = mv^2…basically the projectile rebounded with enough energy to impact, penetrate, and damage my leg which proved to be an entirely inelastic collision…ie bullets don’t bounce off of people. :stuck_out_tongue:

13

For sure! Sometimes when we end a drill out at the range in training and it’s quiet, you can hear the splatter raining down on the metal of the roof shade that covers the benches.

Angled is ideal, but anyone on a range where steel is being shot should beware… regardless of the target configuration.

14

Shooting mild steel with a rifle will definitely increase the odds of fragging. The one time I have been stung was when we foolishly shot a 1/4" mild steel target at an unsafe distance.

I don’t do that anymore unless the steel is well beyond a hundred.

15

We were shooting these at 100-yards just yesterday: Steel Targets

I don’t use Wolf against steel because they tend to do more damage. I believe Wolf bullets have steel cores.

16

i’ve been there. I still have the mild steel plates that were almost perforated.

Shooting steel @ 25yards is still considered very dangerous. We’ve had spectators get injured from a ricochet of 30yards. he had 2 stitches to his hairline. and a good berating from his wife … something about shooting is a waste of time and money

anyway. steel should be shot at least 50yards. which I still am not comfortable. Maybe 100?

17

I have to agree with Rob,
I am by no means a competitive shooter, but I have shot/ attended a number of competitions and observed the same. When you shoot at steel targets, “Splash Back” is inevitable. I don’t know how many times I have been hit in the leg or boot by bullet fragments. -A good reason to wear long pants and heavy-duty footwear.

One of the local ranges in my area puts on some IDPA style matches, but after noting that the steel plates were a little too close for comfort, maybe 8-10 yards, and mentioning this to the RO (he wasn’t concerned). I stopped participating. I thought it was unsafe to shoot plates so close with standard ammo.

Some of the examples mentioned are also good reminders that safety is paramount when using firearms. But, even when we do exercise range safety there are still some risks involved in participating in firearm related activities and/ or training.

Lets all stay safe at the range.
SkiDevil

P.S. DecodedDiesel, sorry to hear of your accident. My uncle is walking around with three bullets in his body from prior military service (retired Army). They couldn’t be removed because of the locations, but he hasn’t had any complications from them being left in his body.

For anyone who really wants to delve into Steel Targets/ Placement/ and Design. A book written by Louis Awerbuck discusses the subject pretty thoroughly.

TACTICAL REALITY: An Uncommon Look at Common-Sense Firearms Training and Tactics. Paladin Press. ISBN: 978-1-58160-051-3

18

I’ve shot a ton of rounds at these ranges by myself or with only a few people and have had no issue. I’ll shoot steel as close as 5 yards if the gong is smooth and I’m very perpendicular to the target.

But for sure when you have a lot of folks at an event of some kind, you’re increasing your odds of people getting hit with bullet flakes just by the wider area of people behind the firing line.

19

I’m going to use it only for the pistol and .22 stuff. The 9MM FMJ flattened out into dime sized lead things and fell to the ground. There was nothing overly dangerous with the 9mm FMJ from what we saw. So it seems that the slower speed and maybe the composition of the pistol rounds will be forgiving enough for my home brewed target system. Eye protection when shooting steel targets takes an even higher level of importance than normal. I normally feel it is for when a gun breaks or a bullet explodes the gun… for shooting steel it covers that situation but also is really your best defense against any junk coming back at you.

I still need to weld angle iron to the uprights, notice in the pictures above that the upright (14 gauge) would not stop the 9mm. So I have some 1/8" angle I’ll weld on there so that the outer corner is facing the shooter. That way the bullet should shatter off of it, being that it will be the 45° angle or it will hit the very popint of the corner.

Here is the 9mm bullet after impacting:

I’ll make use of it. I still plan to drill the 4 pipe sections and tap in a pressed in grease fitting so that I can pump in some wheel bearing grease to prevent rust. Then I’ll blast and paint the entire thing white and paint the target plates red. That should make it a done deal.

20

rob s is right about the angle concept.

I’ve shot thousands of AK and AR rounds at swinging steel targets with no problems (yet). My plates are hardened steel, and angle down so the bullets bounce off the targets into the ground just in front of the target.

The pivot point on the steel plate is behind the target, not above it. The picture rob s posted shows the pivot point behind AND above the target. The following is what I have:

http://www.themetalman.com/targ_swinger.html

You can’t see the back of the target. If I get some time, I will post better pictures of mine. I’ll try to get a picture of the brackets too.

With the design that I use, if you hit above the pivot point, you have a much higher chance of bounce back problems. With robs’s, those problems are minimized.

Joe Mamma