Lol, you prove my point for me. Only a jackass would do that. You win,i feel bad for arguing with you.
Like punching a guy in a wheelchair bad…rofl
Am I the only one not seeing a big deal with the fired cases? Every 5.56 round I ever fired looked like that, including independence, federal, and pmc
Those that received PMs, please read and heed. Thread cleaned up a bit, and now we’re back on track without the snark.
I have seen several pallets of Federal XM193 fired through M16A1’s, AR-15 rifles with 20" barrels and carbines with 16" barrels. Some of the 16" carbines were over-gassed. At times, the brass appeared like the photos the OP posted and flattened primers were the norm, but no one had a major failure.
Our SWAT personnel had short barrel entry weapons and none of them mentioned problems with XM193.
M193 has been flawless and fairly precise for me (under 1.5 MOA). Ran many thousands of rounds of it the last several years, without even a hiccup. Maybe I should knock on wood.
Almost, if not all 5.56 I shoot shows Extractor & Ejector Marks on spent cases, in many different rifles.
Doubtful.
The accuracy specification for M193 cited in MIL-C-9963F is as follows:
The average of the mean radii of all targets of the sample cartridges, fired at 200 yards, shall not exceed 2.0 inches.
These averages are from 10-shot groups fired from machine rested, bolt-actioned test barrels, such as the ones pictured below. All things being equal (which of course they seldom are) this specification equates to a mean radius of 1 inch at 100 yards.
I conducted an accuracy (technically, precision) evaluation of the same four M193 clones that were chronographed above, following my usual protocols. This accuracy evaluation used statistically significant shot-group sizes and every single shot in a fired group was included in the measurements. There was absolutely no use of any Group Reduction Techniques (e.g. fliers, target movement, Butterfly Shots). The shooting set-up will be described in detail below. As many of the significant variables as was practicable were controlled for. Pictures of the fired shot-groups will be posted for documentation.
All shooting was conducted from a concrete bench-rest from a distance of 100 yards (confirmed with a laser rangefinder.) The barrel used in the evaluation was free-floated. The free-float handguards of the rifle rested in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest, while the stock of the rifle rested in a Protektor bunny-ear rear bag. Sighting was accomplished via a Leupold VARI-X III set at 25X magnification and adjusted to be parallax-free at 100 yards. A mirage shade was attached to the objective-bell of the scope. Wind conditions on the shooting range were continuously monitored using a Wind Probe. The set-up was very similar to that pictured below.
The Wind Probe.
The test vehicle for this evaluation was a 16” Colt HBAR with chrome lining, a NATO chamber and a 1:9” twist. This is the barrel found on the Colt 6721 carbine. This barrel was free-floated with a 10” LaRue free-float handguard. I specifically choose to evaluate the accuracy of this ammunition using an AR-15 with a chrome-lined, NATO chambered barrel, as this is the type of barrel that is most commonly used to fire this type of ammunition.
The 16” Colt HBAR is one of the most accurate “off the shelf” chrome-lined, NATO chambered AR-15 barrels that I’ve evaluated. Three 10-shot groups fired from this barrel from a distance of 100 yards using match-grade hand-loads topped with Sierra 52 grain MatchKings had extreme spreads of:
0.85”
1.14”
0.88”
for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 0.96”. Over-laying the three 10-shot groups on each other using RSI Shooting Lab software produced a 30-shot composite target with a mean radius of 0.32”.
IMI M193
Three 10-shot groups of the IMI M193 were fired in a row from a distance of 100 yards from the Colt 16” HBAR. Those three groups had extreme spreads of:
2.83”
2.77”
2.80”
for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 2.80”. The three 10-shot groups were over-layed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The composite group had a mean radius of 0.97”.
The smallest 10-shot group.
The 30-shot composite group.
American Eagle Tactical XM193
Three 10-shot groups of the American Eagle Tactical XM193 fired in a row had extreme spreads of:
3.01”
3.25”
3.57”
For a 10-shot group average of 3.27”. The 30-shot composite group had a mean radius of 0.98”.
The smallest 10-shot group.
The 30-shot composite group.
Prvi Partizan M193
Three 10-shot groups of the Priv Partizan M193 were fired in a row from a distance of 100 yards. The groups had extreme spreads of:
2.72”
3.89”
3.74”
for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 3.45”. All three of these groups were over-layed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius for the composite group was 1.01”.
The smallest 10-shot group of PPU M193
The 30-shot composite group.
Winchester Q3131A1
Three 10-shot groups of the Winchester Q3131A1 load were fired in a row. The extreme spreads of those groups measured:
2.95”
3.73”
3.35”
for a 10-shot average extreme spread of 3.34”. The three 10-shot groups were over-layed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius for the composite group was 1.05”.
The smallest 10-shot group.
The 30-shot composite group.
Here is a summary of the results of the accuracy evaluation of the four M193 clones.
1:7" twist versus 1:9" twist with 55 grain FMJ Ammunition
Using the Prvi M193 ammunition, I did an accuracy comparison firing the 55 grain FMJ load from both a 1:9” twist Colt HBAR and a 1:7” twist Colt HBAR. Four 10-shot groups were fired from each barrel from a bench-rest at a distance of 100 yards. The groups from each barrel were over-layed to form 40-shot composite groups. The mean radii of the composite groups were nearly identical.
Nice post,very informative.
Winchester did better than i thought it would. The prive did a little worse than i thought it would,pretty close though.
Nice test,thanks for taking the time to do it.The HBAR barrel was a nice change from all the high end stainless barrels normally used by everyone.
So Molon how many XM193 Federal cartridges did you test and how many had signs of excess pressure?
And how many of you reading this posting have had the same exact problem happen to “YOU” that the OP is asking about?
My experience… Fed/AE XM193 skus were a bid leader in training ammo for many years. A lot of it was used without issue. A smaller quantity over time experienced dropped primers, obvious pressure signs, and assorted problem reports. These occurred even in known-good guns and chambers, and when other 5.56 loads weren’t having issues in those guns. When suspect batches were pressure tested and/or chrono’ed, they were hot. There were some trends in lots and production dates and Federal made good when problems arose.
Some industry folks have written much more on their experiences, along with hard data including pressure testing results.
The Independence-branded variant (XM193i) is discussed in detail in other threads here and elsewhere. It’s issues are well known, and documented.
With GTG ammo, OP’s BCM will go many thousand rounds dirty and wet.
XM193 isn’t unserviceable, but it is what it is. If you use it, verify your chamber is GTG and watch for pressure issues.
All of it I have seen fired or fired myself was 3 MOA accurate out to 300 yards.
From a Colt 6920 after a DD FDE RIS II MK18 FSP Install, off Sandbags @ 100y, via a Leupold Mark4 on 10x:
Rifle shown below Target Pic
Impressive accuracy.
Guys show us the rear of your XM or M193 Lake City cases, the issue is not accuracy, the issue is chamber pressure, case head swipes, brass flowing in the ejector and primer protrusion.
My scrap brass bucket is 95% brand new factory loaded Federal .223/5.56 cases with 2005 headstamp that have over sized primer pockets after the first firing. And this means these Federal cases had soft brass in the base of the case. BUT this did not happen with later years of the Federal cases “I have” so Federal did have problems with soft brass.
I’m not being hard nosed on this subject but we three possible problems, soft brass, high pressure, or rifle chamber related issues. And I would like to get to the root of the problem that people are saying on this topic. …I gots to know! 
(I don’t want the moderator biting me on the backside again) :rolleyes:
The following posting was brought to you by “The Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Reloadable Brass”.
I had a bunch of overly hot Independence M193, caused me nothing but problems, bulged brass, primers blown out, it took a round stuck in the chamber I had to mortar out of a new KAC 11.5 upper for me to finally figure it out. Couldn’t pay me to run that crap in my rifle. It’s in the same category as the Russian crap as far as I’m concerned.
Fired 360 rounds of it on Sunday with a scrubbed clean chamber/barrel. Still had some swipes, but no raised primers. It was a noticeable difference between the cases from last week and those fired on Sunday. Thanks for the tip Biged. I will still try to unload the rounds I have left, and adjust my cleaning regimen from just a bolt/carrier wipe and re lube to include a boresnake and a chamber bush.
smithje
Do yourself a favor and buy some foam bore cleaner and it will clean better with less work.
CLEANING WITH BREAK-FREE BORE CLEANING FOAM
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?1605-CLEANING-WITH-BREAK-FREE-BORE-CLEANING-FOAM
OP- Shot 180rds of XM193AF90 yesterday, commercially packaged XM193 on strippers, 90rd boxes. 90rds through a Colt 6920, 90rds through a SCAR 16. Recovered cases look like yours. Cases are LC 13. FYI.
Shot some American Eagle XM193 yesterday thru a Dirty Noveske Stainless 16"
Crappy Cell Phone Pics:
I’ve heard a few different answers, so I’m hoping someone can clarify this: Is Independence M193 made by IMI, and is it the same as the IMI-branded M193 (sold by Widener’s, for example)? I found a YT review that said that Independence pistol ammo is made by Lake City, but numerous online listings for Independence M193 say it’s made by IMI. I bought a case of IMI M193 from Widener’s during the M855 panic when no other bulk 5.56 was readily available, and I’d like to know if it exhibits the excessive pressure that Independence is known for.
Thanks,
Dave
XM193i in commercial Independence packaging is Federal components loaded by IMI, marked with a Federal mil lot #, and imported by FCC. It is a unique product, and not the IMI you link to at Wideners.