Good to hear from people actually using them and reporting on their experienses. I’ve been researching the Elcan and getting a lot of crap from people for it. I think most comments I’ve received are based on things they’ve heard or on older gen Elcans. To the guys currently using them I ask if they are the latest gen 3 SOCOM models with the docter on them. I may be getting my hands on one for a real good deal so I would like to know what is the main difference between them and the older gen 2s. If I’m reading right it sounds like other than the ARMS mounts, the POI shift issue has been resolved. I’ve also read that the new ARMS mounts shown at SHOT Show this year are vastly improved and you may be able to retrofit the Elcans. Any info on that would be great.
If you can retrofit the Elcan then I’d love to know more about the ARMS mounts.
I haven’t been able to find anything on them at all.
I just thought I’d add to my previous post since this thread seems to have taken off. The POI shift is present in at least 3 out of twelve units on my team. Guys tend to zero at 4X and never really bother checking at 1X. My guess is that more of them out there have the shift but people aren’t noticing it. I suppose the shift is something that could possibly be readjusted by the manufacturer. Also, seeing what I have, even if mine didn’t have noticeable POI shift I would be constantly worrying that something would fall out of adjustment or something and cause a shift. I could see this happening if crap gets into the external adjustment mechanism or the unit gets bumped and something moves internally.
I agree with some of the previous posters. Great glass and battery life. The BDC is pretty damn close out to at least 800 m with 118LR out of the medium MK17 barrel.
I haven’t actually seen many problems with the ARMS mounts.
I guess to sum it up, my personal experience in actually using the thing on patrols in the desert would consist of:
Pros:
Clear glass, decent FOV, good illum, good BDC, good battery life, durable, 1X-4X switching faster than traditional scope
Cons:
Pretty heavy, POI shift between 1X and 4X noticeable in some units, questionable mount
For anyone willing to accept the possible issues I would recommend taping 24 oz of tire weights or something onto a toilet paper tube and taping it onto your rail. Some people might not mind a pound and a half up there but I, personally, would try to get something lighter. Also, I wouldn’t bother with a supplemental mini red dot. What’s the point? You have a 1X red dot in the unit itself.
If they make one that weighs 16oz and doesn’t have the POI shift I would buy one in a heartbeat.
Good stuff mkmckinley. I think the Elcan is truly the way of the future but they’re not there just yet. It may take a few more years for them to get them lighter, find a solution to POI and better mounts. I think that the more they hear from guys like you in the front lines the better they will get. I guess 5 years from know when they weight and cost half a much, come with LaRue mounts and give you 1X 4X 8X without POI shift they will be the shit.
Yeah that would be amazing. If they even just managed to get the weight down to 20oz or less and eliminate POI shift I’d be a big supporter. In fact if they could do that they’d blow the short dot out of the water IMO. I don’t think they’ll be able to do a three magnification-setting optic with their current architecture. Basically the way it works is you have a 1X tube and a 4X magnifier inside. When you have it on 1X the magnifier is facing 90 degrees from the sight plane and you’re looking between the two magnifier lenses. To switch to 4X you flip a little handle forward that rotates the 4X lenses into your sight plane. You can look into the front of the unit and see the magnifier flipping back and forth. It’s a pretty nifty design actually. Rugged too. I just confirmed zero today and it was within minute of water bottle at 200m after bouncing around in an MRAP and foot patrols for five months.
The thing that I found interesting is that in 4x you are looking straight through the rear lens to the front lens. When you put it on 1x another set of lenses swings into the middle so you now you are looking through more lenses.
From my non-optical background I would have thought it would have been the opposite - the outer lenses would be just plain glass (meaning no magnification) and when you flipped it into 4x then the additional lenses would move inline and provide all the magnification duties.
Those are some large groups for 25 yards.
Pat
After all the feedback I’ve received here and elsewhere I bought a new H-1 from one vendor for $387 shipped! Then I bought the tall mount from LaRue for $108 shipped. Total $495. That’s $115 less than getting the LaRue combo shipped and a whole lot cheaper than an Elcan (not that money was an issue for me).
It doesn’t look like I will be getting the Elcan at least this time around. I do know of an upcoming sale from one of the gun dealers I deal with. You’ll get the new gen 3 military SOCOM Elcans with the doc optic mount and doc optic included for $2K. That’s cheaper than the gen 2 military Elcans without the mount and optic you may find around the web.
I will not be using this insider knowledge but will gladly pass it on to anybody who ask. PM me if interested. FYI… I’m not connected/affiliated/employed/related/et al. with the dealer. I just hate to see a good deal go to waste.
The T1 and H1 are fine RDS sights but they lack a long range capability.
Pat
The H-1 is going on a 10.5" 5.56 SBR meant for home defense (still waiting on form 4). I thought that getting the Elcan would give me the 1X for home defense and 4 X for range shooting. Most feedback I received was to the effect that for a SBR the Elcan was overkill and that I should save my money and go with the H1 or T1. Told repeadetly that the H1/T1 will provide me the ability to hit out to 150m which is definitely farther than any distance shooting I may need to do in the home defense situation. So I guess I’ll save my money and get a magnified optic for my next SBR which will be in 7.62mm. It’s been almost 20 years since I fired a black rifle. Back then only the snipers had optics so you had to do with your good ol’ irons. I was always a good shot but now I think that my aging eyes can use the help so the H-1 should suffice for now.
For your purposes a T1 or H1 would be fine. I personally prefer having the ability to shoot to the rifles potential. That means one of the following. 1. A good variable power scope. (1-4 or 1-6) 2. A fixed ACOG coupled with a T1 aimpoint in a off set mount. 3. An Aimpoint with a magnifier in a flip to side mount.
Pat
Definetly will be looking at the aimpoint/larue 3x flip magnification. I did get some feedback that when looking through the 3X and H1/T1 the dot is blurry. What are you experinces. I’ve been trying to find to find a picture that shows the reticle throught the 3x and T1/H1at the same time to see for myself.
I have used a Aimpoint 3x magnifier for a few years behind a M4 2 moa dot. I also used it behind a 4 moa dot on my 22 build which has a Aimpoint ML2 and behind a Aimpoint ML3 2 moa dot. I have astigmatism so the dot looked like a group of dots. It was tolerable but not ideal. I have one rifle set up with a TA33 ACOG and a T1 in an off set mount and another set up with a Swarovski Z6i. I like the Swarovski the best. its a 1 to 6x scope that is very fast for me to use. I have never used a magnifier behind my T1.
Pat
Rob, Can you tell us more about the Gen 3 ELCAN’s? What’s different about them and how do you tell if an ELCAN you’re looking at is GEN 2 or 3? Is there a model number? Are the Gen 3’s being sold yet?
1X 4X
“Coaxial Alignment: <1.5 MOA between fields”
http://elcansightingsystems.com/Specter_Family_of_Sights/Dual_Role_Sights/SpecterDR_1x-4x.php
Pat, I love the collection! Very nice.
mkmckinley, what HOPLOETHOS said.
From what I was told the military gen 3 is just like the latest civilian models but in the MRE color. The older ones are more of a bronze color while new new ones are more brownish. This web site has a decent review of the civilian version: http://www.cstactical.com/Optics/Elcan-SpecterDR-1-4x-Optical-Sight.html
They sell the civilian for $1832. The SOCOM versions usually go for $2100 without a doc optic mount or doc optic. I know where to get it for $2000 with a doc optic mount and doc optic if interested.
I have 4 rifles, 2 with Eotechs, 1 with an Aimpoint T1, and one with the Elcan spectre DR. I also run Aimpoint 3x mags on the Eotechs and Aimpoint with twistmounts, but the Elcan is my favorite.
Without a doubt the clarity is superior to my other systems but you pay for with the added weight. I’m really hard on my gear and I beat the crap out of my rifles and constantly switch from 1x to 4x and I have never had any issues. As for the weight issue, I suggest a few extra push-ups every day and you won’t even notice…
I wish I could find a dealer that actually has at least one in stock so I could handle it at see it first hand. I’m reluctanct to spend that kind of money on something unseen. I found a list of distributors on the Elcan web site I’m going to be calling to see if I luck out and find somebody that has one not too far away from Orlando.
i have a lot of buddies who have had the same poi shift issue. the few guys i know running the issued elcan are still running dr sights on top because of the eye relief on the elcan. i just don’t see the point of having a 1-4x scope if you still have to mount another red dot on top of it. i’d rather have a fixed power with red dot on top. if you’re choosing between issued optics i would say that the acog with dr set up works well…regardless of the cheek weld issue a lot of guys have been running it for a while now and love it. if you’re purchasing optics on your own i would just buy a short dot. just my thoughts.
My roommate has a Elcan there is plenty of eye relief on 1x and a red dot is not needed. Also if your going to run a red dot with an ACOG on top is the worst place to put it. A off set mount works better in my experience. The Elcan may have less eye relief on 4x but then again so do ACOGS. (TA 31 has very short eye relief)
Pat