Everyone trashes on these guns… Mine is a DPMS Sporticle. Bought online for under $700… I added an Ergo Grip, and a Mickulek Comp (I’m shooting 3-gun). I mounted a Millett DMS 1-4X24 ($199), on a Burris PEPR mount.
These two groups were shot “witnessed” by two of the guys I shoot USPSA with, who are better pistol shooters (A-Class) than I am.
The first group (3-shots, 12-o’clock, 3" high) was with a dirty (25 rounds) gun. Under .75"…
The second group (4 rounds, with one CALLED nasty squeeze, is 1/2" high at 100yds, after a scope adjustment) It is also inside one inch (excluding the flier).
Granted, I wouldn’t carry this gun in Iraq, but it’s not designed for Iraq. This is my gaming gun…
PS… My buddy next to me was shooting a $1500 gun with JP parts… and $700 Trijicon optic. He was shooting “tiny” 1/2" groups with his hand-loads.
My groups where shot with Walmart Bulk-Pack Federal 55gr .223…
Take it to a 2 or 3 day carbine class and let us know how it shoots there. Also, run some Nato M855 through it and let us know how that feeds as well. A gun shooting .223 ammo through a .223 chamber is going to be pretty accurate, but once you start putting milspec or NATO ammo through it and you have to start knocking casings out with a cleaning rod you’re going to get pretty annoyed. I would have taken that $1000 you spent, added another couple hundred, gotten a BCM and called it a day.
The rub on DPMS and similar guns isn’t whether they are capable of shooting a decent group, but whether they can do so consistently over time, while remaining reliable. Will the parts hold up to rigorous shooting, will the gun fire a wide range of available ammunition reliably, etc. I can probably shoot the snot out of a target at 7 yards with a Bersa and walk away feeling good about it, but will that gun give me any degree or reliability and consistency over the long run? Sure, there are probably a good number of DPMS and Bushmaster rifles out there that run reliably and will do so over the course of their lives with high round counts. But the odds are against that happening on a consistent basis, which means you’re taking you’re taking a gamble.
I’m sure it’s a nice rifle for bench shooting and perhaps some gaming, but how hard are you going to push it? Perhaps a better question is, how hard have you pushed it?
The combined 7-shot group, factoring out the scope adjustment, is still inside 1.5".
The endurance is the next test. I’ve only got two sessions, less than 70 rounds through the gun. In that time, one ejection failure in the first 20-30 rounds.
In our 2-gun matches (pistol/rifle), we run 15-35 rounds per stage, usually around 100 rounds per match. That’ll be the initial test… If I can run 4-5 100 round matches without malfunctions/failures… happy. If it doesn’t run… oh well, new upper receiver!
Way I see it, I still have $400-500 to play with!
I was just pretty happy that my new AR Carbine can out-shoot my .308 bolt gun…
Or try four ten round groups back to back and get an average. I did this for an article some time back, comparing a Winchester 70 Stealth in .223 Rem to a Colt HBAR Elite. Both used Leupold 4.5-14 glass. Though both rifles are capable of .5 inch five round groups, the average for the Stealth for the forty rounds was .9 inch and the Colt was just a bit over an inch. This was at 100 yards off a bench and sand bags, using handloads each rifle liked.
Glad the gun is working out for your needs. The accuracy department is not one of the reasons that DPMS is not highly regarded, though.
If you’re only going to use it as a 3 gun or “fun gun” then have at it. Sounds like you already know the difference since you stated you wouldn’t use it for serious social purposes.
I noticed that Paul Howe and his company are working with DPMS on a mid length upper. What with him being a well respected guy running a well respected training school, I’d be interested to see how it meets the widely held conception that DPMS don’t make hard running guns.
I have nothing but great respect for Paul and I hope that he can improve on the DPMS, but I have my doubts. I can’t remember why the collaboration between Paul and LWRCi fell apart.
So far the only collaboration rifle that I have seen that has been a pretty solid rifle was the VTAC rifles from Noveske, JP, and S&W. The Magpul/Noveske rifles were also top notch, but mere mortals had to pay a pretty penny for those. I’m sure there are others out there that I’m not thinking of but I’m at the end of a 12 hour shift. :mad:
My dept use to issue DPMS and we scrapped them for a reason.
Again it sounds like the OP has a good grasp on what his rifle will be used for and what its limitations will be.
I could pick 3 shot groups that are damn near 1/4 MOA…but 5 and 10 round groups are a lot more accurate in gauging a rifles accuracy. Also need several of those put together to really see what is going on.
Also I think the beef with DPMS is more to do with the quality of parts, and chambers that may or may not be in spec. Ive read quite a few people getting a marked 556 barrel but come to find out it has a 223 chamber.
But as long as you are happy with it thats all that really matters.
This is one of the best (and polite/politically correct) explanations on the subject that I’ve read. I agree with all of this and I think it explains it all perfectly.
I’d have to think that Paul Howe would not align himself with a company that produced crap gear.
I know someone from his “alumni network” that ran a DPMS chrome bolt for ~50,000 rounds before the extractor broke. That’s a sample size of one, but too many here would expect a DPMS bolt to break after 500 rounds, or shortly after the EOTech on the same rifle.
I don’t own any DPMS rifles- only a chrome BCG and LPK or two, but I’ve had no problems with either.
Not trying to be overly picky, and I see what you are getting at… but this isn’t an accurate statement. All you are doing here is assuming that since your three round group is smaller than the four round group, that the four round group is the maximum group size. You might be correct, but you would need to fire a group to verify. Like you said, it aint the bow and arrow.
Your gun should be able to do this. Give the gun the benefit of the doubt and don’t clean it between the matches. See how long it goes before it starts giving you trouble. That’s always a fun project to do, and a good test of the weapon.
I see no reason why the Paul Howe collaboration w/ DPMS couldn’t produce a gun as reliable as any. It isn’t that the lower tier manf. can’t make hard use reliable guns…it is that they choose not to thereby cutting costs and marketing to a different demographic.
DPMS can make an AR extremely hard use reliable by using high quality materials, proper testing (HP, MPI, shot peening) and by properly assembling, staking etc. The result would be priced accordingly just like a Colt, BCM, LMT, etc.
