So Im week 2 in to USMC range coaches course. Aside from actually feeling like I’m serving my country and not just sitting in a office all day, Ive been lolzing hard at all the “techniques” and firearms hear say I see from my fellow students.
Theres one I cant get over tho. While the powerpoint and the current MCRP (http://www.pointshooting.com/freemar.pdf)state that when doing a speed reload (weapon dry,@ slidelock) your should bring the weapon back into the workspace.
Now, I do this, most of you prob do this, and most of the big industry instructors Ive seen all reload like this, but one of the instructors "strongly suggjested" we reload with the pistol at full extention, because even at slidelock, the enemy still sees a gun pointed at them. :rolleyes:Now, Im obviously not Mr HSLD, and I have no problem trying something new, but when I did, I was slow, and missed getting a smooth seat a lot. I went back to my fast and accurate workspace reload.
BUT the rest of the class taught this was just great. So I have to ask, does anybody here do this?
The rest Im just trying to keep hush about. Aperently, the “Correct” grip for ISO stance is weapon hand normal thumb forward,and suppprt hand, fingers straight, thumb backwards.:eek::eek::eek::eek:
I can’t reload for crap like that, just my .02. I believe that as long as you are using good gun safety and running the gun efficiently there shouldn’t be any problems if you do things differently.
That reload method was adopted with the M9 by both the Suck and the City of LA in the early 1980s… The reload taught in PMI School back in 1989 was…
With the pistol fully extended, finger off the trigger, support hand aquire a fresh magazine in the three finger loading grip, as you are bringing up the fresh magazine, eject the old magazine and they pass in the air like two ships… Seat the magazine with the heal of the support hand, the primary thumb hits the side release, and back on target…
The “New” reload where we bring the pistol into the work space and use the support hand thumb to release the slide, that most of us do now, came from the gamers who have sold their souls to the timer and are worried about their splits…
I think “most” A list shooters today use this type of reload due to the fact this it is both easier and faster than the old school way we used to teach…
I just opened that file and dragged the slider bar down to somewhere in the middle. It stopped on a page where it recommended tying a loop of 550 cord to the Beretta 92 hammer to aid in cocking the gun… I would see anything else coming out of that manual as suspect after seeing that.
The military is not exactly the forefront of pistol technique and for good reason (they have rifles).
Well if he can see your barrel pointed at him, he can probably see your slide locked, if not, he can probably see your mag eject as you retrieve another fresh magazine from your person and insert it into the pistol. But why in the hell can he see any of this to begin with, but more on that in a second.
Now if he would have used a more legit argument that a lesser trained individual may actually be better served with keeping their sights in a more extended and aligned position so that they become quicker with better accuracy in an engagement after the reload, I might swallow it a bit better.
As I just mentioned above, the thing that usually makes this kind of talk pretty much a moot point, is that if you are standing around while doing this reload as the bad guy observes you doing it, you are an idiot, or a dead man to begin with. We will, or should be hauling ass looking for some hard cover or hovering behind it, with our head up and pistol in a position to produce lesser exposure while being able to observe our pistol reload at the critical insertion moment, all while keeping a good eye on the bad guy or our potential threat areas. You can easily see how things unfold or how a reload really takes place in force on force type of scenario’s, with say Simunitions.
I do know that I am much quicker and even more consistent with a compressed, high in the workspace reload, standing still or more importantly when tucked behind cover or when hauling ass. I don’t haul ass well and reload well with the weapon extended. I am convinced that this type of a “compressed, high in the workspace” reload is quicker and more forgiving when in a dynamic moving environment of combat, or even gaming styles of shooting. I think the 2 translate well. Now I am not talking about how we release a slide but the pistol and body position during the reload.
Of course we need a base model of technique to learn and adapt a style, but we may wish to attempt to train a style that may be much more conducive to what we see that really happens in force on force encounters.
That is the way Thunder Ranch taught it a few years back, 2001/2 or so.
Hold the weapon extended out, pointed down range, “at the threat”, and “watch the threat”, and try to reload.
F that.
As Paul Howe, and a few others from his former unit, have said, “watch the threat?, your only gonna watch him kill ya”.
Right now, your most immediate problem is the empty gun, nothing is getting done until you fix that.
As noted, in your work space, with varying degrees of focus placed on the gun and mag, makes for a faster, more positive reload, under varied conditions, like moving, or cramped behind cover, etc.
IMO, pointing the gun at and watching the threat, while reloading, is one of those TTP’s that sounds all cool and high speed on the surface, but dig a little deeper and it falls apart.
One other thing, something that always annoys me… since we are talking about impressing/bluffing the bad guy…
When guys run the gun dry, and are out of reloads, then just stand there waiting for the instructor to tell them what to do.
At the very least, let the slide go forward, and appear as if you can defend yourself.
At least one Albuquerque PD officer saved his life, buy slamming the cylinder shut on his revolver, and pointing it at the bad guy, at very close range, causing said bad guy to call it quits.
I took a class recently where this was taught. In addition, the ready position taught in this class was a full extension low ready position. Administrative handling was supposed to be done at the ready. Malfunction clearance and reloads were supposed to be done at full extension, weapon on target. Draws progress through the ready, to the target. The techniques taught in the class were generally, as I understand it, older Thunder Ranch techniques, including a bias towards the Weaver over the isosceles stance. I struggled with a lot of the techniques. Upon reflection, it occurred to me that all of the techniques taught were likely developed on the assumption that the shooter uses a Weaver stance. Doing everything at full extension makes a lot more sense for someone shooting Weaver, because full extension happens closer in to the body. For the malfunction clearance and reloads, it’s functionally much more like doing things in the “workspace.” When the techniques got adapted to an isosceles stance, where full extension is further out, they became much more awkward and difficult to do.
The “pass in flight” reload has been taught for a while.
It’s stupid, and I have never (won’t say ever) heard anyone with significant close-range gunfight experience recommend it. There are way too many people out there that fancy themsleves gunfighters and gunfighter instructors that barely have the proficiency to teach someone how to present the weapon.
Is it still the competition team shooters that teach the CMT course, or is it no-shit WTBn personnel? If the former, it makes…well, it doesn’t “make sense,” but it would explain it from a sourcing perspective. Those guys are more often than not “shooters” and not gunfighters. The WTBn folks are generally far more grounded.
If the MCRP still speaks to pulling the gun in to work on it, your ass is firmly and warmly covered if you have any reason to argue it. If it’s in a publication (particularly if you’re lucky enough for it to be correct) or other reference, you can refer to the pub and speak from a position of strength if you refuse to do it and create scars; “Maybe I can’t say that I’m right, but the pub says you definitely can’t say I’m wrong.” I hate having to think like that, but sometimes you have to to keep your sanity and not do retarded techniques because somebody wants to be An Individual.
Nice to know that it was a suggestion and that you won’t have to let your inner brig-laywer out to play.
EDIT: Dang it, F2S, we keep stacking on each other. People will talk!
I never saw that type of reload while I was in the military, but was taught it while in police academy. The reason given to use was that if you are out of ammo, the suspect will see the gun still pointed at them and they will think you are still shooting. While criminals arent always the brightest people; a great deal of them have been exposed to gun before and realize that if there isnt a flash and loud noise coming from your gun, you arent shooting at them anymore.
The “workspace” reload has become the standard for a reason. It is more efficient, and thus faster, than any other technique that I am aware of. Sadly; some people cant seem to grasp that.
One thing I have noticed. People that reload with the gun extended, typically do so by “beer canning” their pistol mags.
It is so funny that this topic came up on here because I recently found myself defending the workspace reload to one of our firearms instructors during mandatory training. This newly trained instructor had just completed the NC Firearms Instructor Course the previous month and is now convinced that the NC Justice Academy is the end all be all of firearms instruction. He has never had any instruction from a credible firearms instructor. This guy goes through the motion of teaching this technique mentioned in the above posts, then the firing line practices by firing two rounds-reload, two more-reload, and two more rounds again. I finshed firing my last two rounds before most of the line had reloaded the first time, and was questioned on my technique. I explained that the technique I used was taught by the very best, most experienced combat shooting instructors in the world. His response was that my technique was actually slower because it required more movement. I stated the fact that I finished the drill far quicker than my peers with all A zone hits, so how could I be slower. He stated that even if my technique was faster his was tactically better. He then explained that his technique kept the weapon on target, and that it didn’t require changing your sight picture. He went on to say how you might fake out your opponent as well. I stated that was all well and good until someone calls your bluff, and that I thought the object of a speed reload was just that-to reload and get back in the fight as fast as possible. I stated that his technique was fine for teaching BLET students but that he should teach what works in a gunfight and that I would be training the way I was taught. He then tried to embarrass me by saying that pointing my muzzle off target to reload was unsafe and that it would be a safety violation to do a reload without the muzzle pointed downrange, and what might happen if the weapon went off while reloading. I advised him that real gunfights do not happen on a range anyway, so there IS NO down range. Then advised him that he needed to spend his time helping the people who have trouble qualifying rather than waste time trying to convince me that his technique is the smarter way. I cannot believe the Justice Academy is teaching new firearms instructors this method. Cant wait until October when I go through firearms instructor training myself.
