Do you "Muscle" or "Over Grip" the pistol?

I have had several conversations as of late on this very topic. With my latest video (Concealed Carry Shooting). I have received several questions that are again in regards to the same or similar topic. I decided to answer one individuals question directly but decided to share it as it answers several related questions that I often get. His particular question or issue was something similar to my own experiences and those I tend to teach. He is a larger framed guy like myself and he invariably ends up with a lot of muscle tension and he finds himself “crushing” his weapon and using his mass to combat recoil. Now I understand that everyone is not the same and that we all have different takes on things. What follows in my reply is my own personal take on the topic and what I have found to work well for myself and others who have this issue.

Boy do I know what your talking about all too well! You and your friend have hit on one of the million dollar questions. My student base is predominantly larger, muscled, tightly wound up guys so this is something that is very common for me to deal with. Also as you mention I am dead guilty of “muscling” the firearm around because of the mass that I can put behind it and this really is only a good thing on limited occasions. Pure technique is generally better. In my video comparison of the BattleComp vs the Bravo Company Comp one of my main instructors is in the video. The tall, leaner guy in green with big arms. Even to this day in rapid strings of fire he can get wound up tight, start muscling the weapon, over gripping and pushing shots badly. With a Glock he has a pronounced low left push as a right hander when he muscles the gun which is common.

A few key things may start to happen when you “muscle” the weapon and can cause low or low right / low left impacts. You will generally see guys roll their shoulders way to much and they will start dipping their head badly. This very much starts to disrupt a natural point of aim. I know natural point of aim is a big thing with a rifle, but it very much applies to handguns, especially in a highly trained shooter who has a natural point of index when pointing the weapon or when reaching full extension. Under little stress you get one spot where the weapon will index, under higher amounts of stress when you “scrunch up” with a lot of muscle tension it is not uncommon to get a lower index spot. Also these guys generally fatigue way quicker in their traps and neck area due to their muscle mass and continually flexing that area. Shoulder, head, neck stress / fatigue leads to all kinds of shooting issues.

Another issue is that guys will start “crushing” or “over gripping” the pistol especially with their support hand. The support hand and the fingers can start torquing the the bottom of the frontstrap of the grip which starts to rotate the muzzle downward. This tightening of the grip can also very adversely affect the shooters trigger control and can commonly cause, low / right / left issues.

Another thing to look for is something that I call “post ignition push”. It might be looked at like a flinch and kinda is, but it really isn’t a startle or negative reaction to the gun going bang. A “post ignition push” is where generally a good shooter, is shooting rapid strings of fire and is attempting to control recoil to the point that they are pushing forward on the weapon in order to rapidly return the muzzle back to POA after the muzzle lifts. You might see this in a good shooter who is going to shoot a rapid string of fire and has a click on the first round and the muzzle has a pronounced dip. Now I am not saying that this technique should be adopted or is necessarily a good thing either. It may look just like a flinch to many, but if you examine it closely it is different. I find that shooters who like to “muscle” tend to show the “post ignition push” more frequently. So some shooters who exhibit this “post ignition push” can indeed get caught up with a timing issue and place rounds low.

So how do we fix it? RELAX. Sounds simple and it is when you practice it enough. This may sound a little weird as I describe this, but hang with me. :smiley: When I find guys on the line showing these signs, muscles tensed, head scrunched down, crushing the pistol, you can generally place a hand on their shoulder or trap and they feel like a spring about to snap. I will have them halt their shooting, lower their weapon with arms at extension, pretty much weapon hanging. I tell them to look up, head back, relax and close their eyes as they breathe and relax their muscles. I tell them to remain relaxed with their head back (looking up). I will keep one hand on their shoulder / trap to feel if they tense up. With my other hand I will raise their arms and pistol up to extension without them tensing up. I will then have them drop their head forward and open their eyes. Their head and neck are more erect and their shoulders are not tensed.

This is what I initially have them try to replicate. I will have them slow fire, completely relaxed (say a one hole drill). Then on a cadence I have them shoot strings of fire and gradually increasing their cadence on the strings as I closely monitor. They will slowly but surely start to assume a more correct upper body position / tension as the cadence on the strings of fire increase. When they hit the sweet spot for the correct upper body (head, neck and shoulder) position. This is where I stop them and have them repeat that exact cadence to start learning that correct upper body position / tension. Once they get that feeling correct, their strings of fire can progress naturally. But of course this may take a long time of re-learning and must be watched closely. A good shooter can notice this in themselves, relax, take a breather or a break and get back at it, but more relaxed.

Now I will have them work on presentation from the draw. Another key thing to remember or practice is to let the weapon or muzzle dictate where your motion stops at extension. Let the weapon stop itself. In other words, don’t violently push it forward with a lot of muscle tension. This will invariably dip the muzzle when the weapon more violently hits that point of extension. You will have bad results especially if you are prepping the trigger on the extension and trying to time the shot breaking when hitting extension.

How do I fix this one? I often talk about pointing a finger at an object and how we can naturally accomplish this. I will have the shooter holster their weapon. I will have them stand very relaxed, hands on their hips on their sides about belt line. I will tell them to point at an object. Continue to have them do this several times at various things. Stand up and do it yourself right now as a matter of fact. What do you notice? Your finger comes up to your line of sight and stops almost naturally on target. You don’t need to violently “punch” your finger out to the target. Your finger knows where to go to hit extension while relaxed and be naturally on target without any excess movement. Now put a pistol in your hand (unloaded of course) and index your finger straight on the frame and just start pointing, starting from the hip. Don’t think of the pistol and the sights, think about pointing your finger at something. The body will do its job when pointing. It knows where extension is with your arms and you don’t need to “punch” your finger or weapon out to extension. It will soon get their more quickly on its own, with better reliability / repeatability and better accuracy on target.

If you notice in my video, I tend to stand more erect and remain more relaxed prior to the buzzer. A relaxed muscle can react and move faster then one that it tensed. Kinda like a flinch. Nothing beats that muscle speed. You will often see shooters “set up” in a stance prior to a quick draw or rapid string of fire. They will have a forward lean, shoulders forward and they will already have too much muscle tension. This IMO slows you down. Try to remain more relaxed. I will also note that I try to keep things consistent in my set up and presentation no matter the distance I am shooting at and they look the same if I am at 5 yards or 50 yards. Many people let distance to the target mess with their mind. Also start using buzzers, reduced size targets, small circles, small hit zones and you will often see people change how they set up and alter their presentation. Like “I am more ready now”. Added pressure of a buzzer, distance, speed or reduced hit zones can completely change how a shooter approaches the situation. Consistency is key. You might take longer on the sights to see what you need to see, to get the hit you need to get, but be consistent in everything else.

Sorry about the Novel, but this really is an in depth topic. Let me know how things work out!

Aloha,
Surf

You will generally see guys roll their shoulders way to much and they will start dipping their head badly

I refer to this as “tactical turtle”. All my control comes from forarms. Tight back and shoulders can kill your SA and target/weapon transitions are slow as a result.

Knock out article dude!

Great write-up Surf. Ill never forget my first rifle class, I was so tense my back felt like I pulled a muscle for the next few days. Figured that couldnt be normal. /eta - great cc shooting at 50 yards too!

I am for sure guilty of this.

Great topic and outstanding information! I certainly allow myself to tense up too much when shooting rapidly. I feel that fatigue in the traps and shoulders for sure. I especially like the “post ignition push” concept. I’ll be watching for these things much more closely now. Thanks for posting.

Good stuff, Surf.

In addition to resetting gear and hydrating on breaks, I like to take time to do some deliberate stretching. It helps keep the muscles loose and work out some of the accumulated tension, esp on a long training day.

I’m actually pretty guilty of this from time to time. Thanks, Surf!

Are you describing the Zen moment when you become like a leaf on the wind Surf?

Great write up. I attended a Haley Strategic course last week and the way that Ron Avery demoed it was with a cup of water. He would bring it up to his line of sight and the goal was to not spill the water. They were saying essentially the same thing as written here but I figured I would post that for another way of looking at it.

Post Ignition Push- Yep, that’s me. However I wrote it off as a flinch. What you wrote will help me deal with it better when it starts kicking in.

Thanks Surf

Awesome Surf! Very well thought out, well written, and so much of it spoke to me. Muscle tension, post ignition push, and “punching” the gun out too violently are my hot topic issues…yeah I’m all messed up! I will be working on this. :smiley:

Also, I think the whole “combative pistol stance” with the rolled shoulders, hunched back, and scrunched head is one of the main reasons I tense up. Sounds like you prefer more of a upright position to keep muscles relaxed.

Something I’ve been noticing, and noticed yesterday, is that my first few shots of the day seem to be my best. I’m not tense, I’m not trying to beat my previous times on the shot clock, ect. I’ll just have to remember to relax throughout the session.

Here’s a follow on question…in your experience, even if you train this way and get it right during training, will you revert back to the tense and scrunched position when lead actually starts flying both ways? Or will you be able to keep your fluidity/looseness through the stress of that life or death situation?

Thanks for taking the time on this!

Thanks! I think I might steal the “tac turtle” line. :wink:

In essence, yes. :smiley:

I have never heard the draw in reference to the cup of water analogy, but I do use a glasses of beer analogy in shooting on the move, like rushing back to the table from the bar when the game starts back up and carrying glasses of beer, moving quickly but trying not to spill them. But then again, I am not overly familiar with Mr. Avery, in that I have never met or trained with him.

Some say the end result in a flinch and the other phenomenon of what I call the “post ignition push” is the same thing. While similar they can be treated differently in how an instructor or a shooter might address the situation. A flinch is a negative or involuntarily physiological response of the body that imparts a negative influence onto the weapon. While the “post ignition push” generally starts as a conscious response by the shooter to shorten time of recoil, however via training it can quickly ingrain itself into the subconscious as a normal or subconscious response. While not always bad, at the subconscious level is when things can get sticky when problems develop because it is rooted.

The key to a good instructor is to be able to identify the issue and make the correct assessment. Then they need to know how to fix the shooter. I would guess that the majority of your production line instructors wouldn’t even have a clue in regards to this, let alone how to fix it amongst many other fine nuances of shooting.

I do prefer to be more upright and relaxed, but trust me I wasn’t always like that, especially in my younger days when I was really into powerlifting. I tried to “own” every weapon on the range with my body mass / strength. Older and wiser perhaps, but now I very much try to conserve energy because those long long drawn out call outs are more taxing then 10 years ago. :wink:

As for part 2 of your question, training vs. real world performance, which is really another topic in itself, I definitely have a lot of thoughts on it. I will say that it is always interesting to see how a new guy reacts to gunfire in a real world setting. I find myself really taking note of this. But to keep it less brief then the initial post, everyone will obviously react differently. However I do believe that the more training, especially reality based FoF type, that a person has will greatly influence their reaction / performance. This is not a new concept by any means but one I do highly believe in and subscribe to.

While it may not be pleasant, the mind and body says “been here, done that” lets get on with what we need to do via training or in other words, our mind has a “trained response” from which to draw from. The body doesn’t go into “caveman” or more correctly “reptile” mode, or isn’t as easily influenced from that part of the brain because it has a response in memory or on file that it can draw from. Without an experience or similar experience from which to draw from, your “reptilian” brain runs rampant with its genetically pre-wired responses. Which can be a simplistic form of “fight” or “flight” without a trained way of doing it.

For myself, I find more tension in the events prior, or even the events post incident to be more stressful. I find myself eerily calm around gunfire. Don’t get me wrong as I can live without it, but I feel less stressed then the moments or events leading up to it. Perhaps similar to pre-game butterflies, but when the whistle blows it is game on. Of course there are various ways in which the incident can come to a conclusion and there are those times when the post incident stress (administrative stuff, potential litigation, etc) can be far far worse and last for years. I have been involved in litigation that has lasted a total of 8 years of my 23+ year career. Even a win, or being found with zero liability, you can never get back all of that time and stress. I always tell my guys, that pulling a trigger may very well be not the toughest part of the entire process that they will go through and a few of my students / partners have also found this to be true.

Very interesting write-up as always Surf, thanks! Your points about relaxation and speed, as well as the benefits of a more upright stance are spot on.

Another issue is that guys will start “crushing” or “over gripping” the pistol especially with their support hand.

In particular, I found the above statement interesting. By this do you mean crushing it to the point where you’re shaking or that you’re actively torquing it in an alternative direction which leads to errant shots?

I only ask because I have actually been actively working on increasing my overall grip strength, as well as the amount of pressure I utilize in my support hand grip in anchoring the pistol and minimizing muzzle flip during rapid fire.

The rationale I have been using on this is, if I increase my grip strength I can increase grip pressure without increasing grip “tenseness.” So far, it seems to be paying dividends in reducing muzzle flip and speeding up my splits. Given you have very impressive recoil control though, I’d definitely be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

What does the term “crushing” translate to in grip strength? I have taken multiple classes at TigerSwan and every instructor said, of the total amt. of force used to hold the pistol, 60-70% should come from the support hand. This allows the trigger finger hand to be more relaxed(and of course the trigger finger) so that better trigger control is attainable. So, for me, since TS is seriously squared away, and their technique works, I consider 60-70% of support hand “crush” to be optimum. Long winded way of wondering what “crush” translates to in terms of % applied by which hand.

Thanks for the reply, Surf. I will definitely try the more upright posture and loose/less tension next time out. Now that I think about it, possibly another benefit, Kyle Defoor mentioned in one of his handgun classes that he stands more upright on longer range shots so that he is looking out of the middle of the eye instead of having the head tucked and looking out of the top of the eye…which he says causes more eye strain and less focus on the sights. I just didn’t think about doing the same for shorter range shots as well.

Also, that makes perfect sense about real world performance and kind of ties into another recent thread about brain function under stress. I have an ECQC class next weekend which includes some FoF. I’ll be sure to note my performance/posture when the stress level is higher.

While I am not qualified to speak on this subject, I agree that if a miss is caused by a flinch or PIP, the result is the same- a miss. However, the cause is different and therefore, as you say, the solution is different.

Whenever PIP manifests itself in my shooting, I usually think of it as a flinch and try to solve it as such, because that’s what I was taught. The intuitive side of my brain has always suspected it wasn’t a flinch but the logical side knew it was. Attacking it as a flinch didn’t correct it. Part of the lesson here, is to trust my intuition. The other is that now I know it’s different problem, I can now apply the correct solution. Now, I’ll be able to sort out if the problem is a flinch, the involountary reaction to an anticipated unpleasant event, or PIP, the attempt to artificially control recoil.

It’s actually a relief to finally realize there is a difference between the two. For that alone, I owe you

“Crushing the grip” is a bit of a metaphorical term, in that the shooter displays so much muscle tension, primarily throughout the upper body (lats, upper back, delts, arms and neck) that it looks as if the shooter is going to actually or is attempting to crush the grip. This often leads to quick fatigue, body tremor and generally results in sloppy technique which can negatively influence the weapon and translates into poor results on target.

You are hitting on a key point here. IMO, Actual grip strength is huge in recoil control. Greater grip strength will allow you to help with recoil / recovery much more efficiently and will help to negate the need to put as much emphasis on other larger muscle groups that will quickly fatigue the shooter which more rapidly decreases performance on target.

I attempt to avoid putting numbers or percentages, but I will agree that my support hand applies more gripping force. I will also note that I am a bit more than anal about the ability of allowing my primary shooting hand the freedom to run my desired trigger manipulation.

I will note that when guys start “Crushing” or “Over gripping” by my own personal definition you will see interesting things happening. Some guys get SO fixated an applying grip force with their support hand, they impart too much muscle influence from the tricep, shoulder, neck and lat muscle groups. What you will see is that shooters start placing too much negative counter torque on the weapon which usually causes the muzzle to “dip”. They start “pulling” with the support hand instead of applying an opposing force with the opposite side of the pistol. So the pinkie and ring finger start “torquing” on the bottom of the front strap of the grip causing the muzzle to dip. Add a possible “flinch” or “post ignition push” improperly timed and you have big issues. With a modern Iso you want good 360* pressure. Now with a Weaver or Chapman type set up a push / pull was commonly touted and torquing rearward with the support hands pinkie and ring finger (pulling) was not a bad thing as the primary hand was providing the “Push” to counter this motion.

As a small test, extend your arms and form a simulated grip (no weapon needed). Now start applying a torque like tension with the support hands pinkie and ring finger. Notice what muscles come into play and the head wants to dip. Now when guys apply too much upper body muscle tension this is what you will commonly see happen. Too much negative torque on the weapon. Now with your arms extended just start “squeezing” your two hands evenly in a 360* manner. Notice what muscle groups flex. Mostly the hands, forearms and lesser degrees in the upper arms, shoulders and lats and neck. Notice that you can actually find the ability to keep the head more “upright” with less tension on the neck. When you torque, the muscle groups involved want to draw your head downward and creates a lot of tension.

So with that in mind, it is also my belief that the less muscle tension you can place on the upper body while maintaining efficiency in the weapons management, the better the results. Good isometric 360* tension and be aware if you start “pulling” or “torquing” too much. Start quoting percentages and not giving a good example of the direction of forces and you will start to see guys “torquing” or “pulling” the weapon especially as they get more fatigued.

Remember being less tensed up or a more heads up relaxed upper body position, does not mean that this necessarily changes an overall good body position or athletic posture. A good linebacker will be head and eyes up but maintain the ability to move or absorb hits and react quickly with an aggressive stance / posture.

What KD mentions is also very true. We see better, have less tension and fatigue less quickly (eyes, body muscles) when we keep our head more erect and view the world in a certain angle or degrees with our line of sight. From someone who comes from a heavy background with a bolt rifle and spending hours behind one, this concept is patently obvious in its negative effects on the body.

Definitely get SN take on the topic. Be sure to let me know how it goes!

This is where I feel having the support hand do 60-70% of the gripping comes into play. Allows the flexibility/freedom the trigger hand needs.

I get you not putting %'s on it, but it is useful. KD, TS cadre, LAV, and now you all seem to say the same thing on this topic. Funny how good instructors cover the same ground. Plays right into TS’s saying, “There is no such thing as advanced marksmanship skills, only flawless execution of the fundamentals under stress.” Good instructors cover the fundamentals and there are only so many recognized ways to do so, so there is much cross-pollination.

Great info as usual Surf.

I’m glad I read it when I did. I thought the tactical turtles were the guys that knew what they were doing. I found on my own that if I could just stand rather normal and keep my head upright I did much better.

I am small frame though and so the upright position seemed less conducive to recoil control. So I would try to find a happy medium between TacTurtle and upright. I too have noticed the post ignition push and had no idea if it was right, wrong or what the hell to do about it.

Do you have any advice for staying upright, staying relaxed and with a small frame having good recoil distribution back through the arms. That seems to be my tipping point, that recoil seems to be all hand oriented or else it needs to be “muscled” out. Do you have any pointers on recoil distribution such that the hands don’t get so upset each shot? It seems really difficult to get a strong grip and relaxed arms, shoulders and back.

Makes perfect sense, thanks for your reply Surf!