I am speaking now of battle rifles, not simply sniper rigs. Do you consider Noveske’s AR10s to be competent battle rifles in the same spirit of the LMT MWS? I know they are deadly accurate, and I cast no aspersions upon them, but I do wish to ask.
There is a guy at my local range who has one that hasn’t had any complaints about it, and it is certainly accurate, but I’ve never met anyone who has put more than a few hundred rounds through one. I hear the term battle rifle used very often to refer to 308 carbines, differentiating them from precision guns, but isn’t the primary reason 308 guns are coming back into the picture because a 556 carbine can’t reach out to 600+ meters effectively and consistently? To me this indicates it is still somewhat of a precision issue, I know I certainly wouldn’t want to be toting around an LMT/N6/etc as opposed to an m4 unless I knew I needed the extra capability that the 308 had to offer, otherwise it just seems like a lot of extra weight and harsher operation.
First off, thank you for using the term battle rifle correctly. I hear so many people call AR15s battle rifles that I want to puke.
I love Noveske, I have more Noveske rifles than any other. My only point of discussion here, and interested in what more knowledgeable folks would input, is if there would be a disadvantage of using their SS bbls over a CHF. For a sniper rig, SS sure thing. But for something you’d blast several hundred rounds or more through over a short period of time, wouldn’t the CHF be more reliable?
I think for the reasons you mention above is why several people I know coming back from the sandbox or that shoot competitively suggest a 6.5 over a .308.
I have over 5 thousand Hornady steel match 155 bthp 308s through my competition noveske N6. I shot it so much I caused the red dot in my schmidt bender SD to shift to the upper right edge of the reticle. I’d bet my life on an N6. In fact I find the gen2 armalite mags extremely reliable. My experience of course, is different than guys shooting them off a bench at a range.
Will the guy currently missing with the 5.56 make the shots with the .308?
-B
Not sure I follow, I was talking about military use before, where the 308 would be better in terms of wind deflection, higher BC etc that will make a 600-800 shot easier and will deliver more energy on target, and if those were not concerns for the shooter than a 556 gun would be a far superior choice due to all other factors involved. If you can’t hit a target at 600 yards with a 556 you aren’t going to hit it with a 308, 338, etc. 1000 yards is a different ballgame, but I’d say a gas gun isn’t necessarily the optimal tool for that anyways, at least in terms of consistency.
You commented earlier that while people distinguish precision from battle rifles, the ranges where people have their complaints are more in precision rifle territory. I agree. My point was that if people aren’t hitting their targets with the 5.56, then they probably won’t with the .308 either (remember that there are more than a few confirmed kills using 5.56 weapons out past 600m). At that range, would we not be looking to precision rifles and crew serveds anyway?
-B
5.56mm dominates NRA HiPower shooting at 600 yards compared to 308.
The issue is not the wind - 308 is better for effect on the target. You just have to decide if you want to carry all of that weight to achieve that. I have bounced back and forth on that many times but I have to remind myself, I never shoot beyond 200 yards simply because the nearest range longer than that is over an hour away and also because, in the zombie-future, I can’t see defending myself against something that far away. Not that it could never happen, but I would be using that heavy ammo 99.99% of the time up close - so I would rather design for the most likely situation.
Even in it’s abbreviated form, my ArmaLite/Leonidas with a T1 is a heavy bitch. I’m not a small guy, I used a 22" 338Fed AR-10 to hunt antelope, and it’s noticeably heavier – even over short durations.
This is obviously over-stated, but I think a single, fully loaded, steel 20rd AR-10 mag might weigh as much as three fully loaded (28rds ea.) AR-15 mags.
Noveske produces some of the finest “black rifles” on the market. The only thing holding me back from one of their AR10’s is simply that, it doesn’t use KAC pattern Mags, but I’m still tempted to pick one up.
Effect on target is a major factor as I mentioned, but I wouldn’t discount how easily the round gets there either, sometimes you don’t have the luxury of time or conditions you do in an NRA match.
Wind Drift (Inches) 10 mph Crosswind
600 yards 700 yards 800 yards
M118LR 31.4 44.4 60.5
MK262 43.2 61.9 85.0
M855 59.5 88.4 124.9
Imho, multiple beneficial factors at those distances, not just barrier penetration/terminal effects.
I would never have any doubts about taking an N6 into battle, Noveske makes some of the best rifles in the world.
I’ve actually been facing the same dilemma. I’ve recently been debating between a Noveske N6 and a Larue Predatar. It’s been hard to nail down the specific weight of each, but I’ve heard that the Noveske is a porker, and the Larue is an ultra lightweight.
I may need to start a new thread, but for me the conflict stems from whether the Noveske is too heavy to lug around, and the Predatar too light to absorb enough recoil for a quick follow up shot.
Thoughts?
Does anyone know why Noveske doesn’t redesign their .308 rifles to take KAC pattern mags?
I can’t say for certain.
This will sound flippant, but I mean it sincerely:
I honestly believe that this question is like asking Beretta why they don’t change the 92FS to take Glock 17 mags.
I can see your point. Also, there are more differences between the two than just the magazines, if I understand correctly.
I’ll throw this in, I own a 16 7.62 Predatar and a few weeks ago after I finished up doing some 200 yard shooting, I decided to move up to the 10 and practice some drills. I had the bright idea to pull the Aimpoint off my BCM and run it on the Larue for a bit. I wasn’t expecting much but I was very suprised at how well the gun ran and how easy it was to run it, the gun seemed to jump back onto targets itself! As always, YMMV.
I have had a 14.5 SS barreled N6 now for three years. I only have about 1200 rds through it, 500 quality match rounds and the rest South African Battle pack. I have run the rifle slick with just irons as well as with an IOR 1.5-8 MP8 W/ .308 BDC and bipod. When I’m on my game it’s an MOA gun with match ammo. With SA battle pack ammo, its about an 2-3 MOA gun. (just that ammo)
I’m with COLD on the 2nd gen magazines, I have had no problem with them at all. I did have a couple of older mags that I did have a problem/feed issue with. Those mags absorbed a few 7.62X51 rounds to “cure” them.
I also am using a Gemtech Quicksand on this rifle and it functions flawlessly with or without the can on it, without gas reduction or spring changes.
It’s heavy compared to an AR and when you get 6 20 rd mags in your vest its way heavy. as far as carrying the N6 as a battle rifle? to me it would depend on my AO.
I find it interesting that some people on this board don’t have very good things to say about Armalite but rave about the N6, which is just a rebadged Armalite with a very nice barrel, SWS rail and Troy sights. I will admit that I have 5 Noveske rifles and they all run quite well. I hold them in high regard with my colts.
Until that day,
Darkop
I have both an Armalite and an N6 and love them both. I’m also really happy with the Gen II mags. Folks on this site aren’t too sympathetic towards the Armalites though.