Do we need the Air Marshall Service? (Video)

Video of Rep John Duncan here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9aOYkkvJ4g

I’ve highlighted what I think are the key points in this article relating to the financial cost, not the FAM’s illegal actions, that does not mean I endorse or support them. Do the positives out weigh the negatives? http://duncan.house.gov/2009/06/22062009.shtml

Washington, DC – Mr. DUNCAN: Madam Speaker, probably the most needless, useless agency in the entire Federal Government is the Air Marshal Service.

In the Homeland Security Appropriations bill we will take up next week, we will appropriate $860 million for this needless, useless agency. This money is a total waste: $860 million for people to sit on airplanes and simply fly back and forth, back and forth. What a cushy, easy job.

And listen to this paragraph from a front-page story in the USA Today last November: “Since 9/11, more than three dozen Federal air marshals have been charged with crimes, and hundreds more have been accused of misconduct. Cases range from drunken driving and domestic violence to aiding a human-trafficking ring and trying to smuggle explosives from Afghanistan.‘’

Actually, there have been many more arrests of Federal air marshals than that story reported, quite a few for felony offenses. In fact, more air marshals have been arrested than the number of people arrested by air marshals.

We now have approximately 4,000 in the Federal Air Marshals Service, yet they have made an average of just 4.2 arrests a year since 2001. This comes out to an average of about one arrest a year per 1,000 employees.

Now, let me make that clear. Their thousands of employees are not making one arrest per year each. They are averaging slightly over four arrests each year by the entire agency. In other words, we are spending approximately $200 million per arrest. Let me repeat that: we are spending approximately $200 million per arrest.

Professor Ian Lustick of the University of Pennsylvania wrote last year about the money feeding frenzy of the war on terror. And he wrote this: “Nearly 7 years after September 11, 2001,‘’ he wrote this last year, “what accounts for the vast discrepancy between the terrorist threat facing America and the scale of our response? Why, absent any evidence of a serious terror threat, is a war to on terror so enormous, so all-encompassing, and still expanding? The fundamental answer is that al Qaeda’s most important accomplishment was not to hijack our planes but to hijack our political system.”

“For a multitude of politicians, interest groups and professional associations, corporations, media organizations, universities, local and State governments and Federal agency officials, the war on terror is now a major profit center, a funding bonanza, and a set of slogans and sound bites to be inserted into budget, grant, and contract proposals.‘’

And finally, Professor Lustick wrote: “For the country as a whole, however, it has become maelstrom of waste.‘’ And there is no agency for which those words are more applicable than the Federal Air Marshal Service.

In case anyone is wondering, the Air Marshal Service has done nothing to me, and I know none of its employees. But I do know with absolute certainty that this $860 million we are about to give them could be better spent on thousands of other things.

As far as I’m concerned, it is just money going down a drain for the little good it will do. When we are so many trillions of dollars in debt, a national debt of over $13 trillion, we simply cannot afford to waste money in this way.


$200,000,000 per arrest, that really stood out to me. I wonder if they were “disgruntled passenger” arrests or something more sinister? I can honestly say that my mindset while flying has changed completely since 9/11 and I know for a fact that many people I know feel the same way. Not to say we don’t need FAMs but I know there are a lot of volunteer Marshalls on probably every flight :wink:

I haven’t attempted to verify any of the numbers so if there’s any discrepancies nobody have a fit.

Washington, DC – Mr. DUNCAN: Madam Speaker, probably the most needless, useless agency in the entire Federal Government is the Air Marshal Service.

In the Homeland Security Appropriations bill we will take up next week, we will appropriate $860 million for this needless, useless agency. This money is a total waste: $860 million for people to sit on airplanes and simply fly back and forth, back and forth. What a cushy, easy job.

Deterrence costs money. Especially the nature of the deterrence, and response capability, that the FAMs have.

And listen to this paragraph from a front-page story in the USA Today last November: “Since 9/11, more than three dozen Federal air marshals have been charged with crimes, and hundreds more have been accused of misconduct. Cases range from drunken driving and domestic violence to aiding a human-trafficking ring and trying to smuggle explosives from Afghanistan.‘’

Actually, there have been many more arrests of Federal air marshals than that story reported, quite a few for felony offenses. In fact, more air marshals have been arrested than the number of people arrested by air marshals.

Bad apples everywhere.

Locals, state, and federal cops get arrested all the time, misdemeanors and felonies. Plenty more have been accused of misconduct. They drink and drive, beat their wives, lie, steal, kidnap, and kill.

For such stats to be of any use, they’d have to be comparative analyses between entities. Do the FAMs get pinched statutorily or procedurally any more or less than other LEOs?

Hell, look at the Wyoming Highway Patrol. Good guys, but they had a run recently. How do their recent trooper arrests, as a percentage of their total force, shake out? Compared to the FAMs?

Lies, damn lies, and stats.

We now have approximately 4,000 in the Federal Air Marshals Service, yet they have made an average of just 4.2 arrests a year since 2001. This comes out to an average of about one arrest a year per 1,000 employees.

Now, let me make that clear. Their thousands of employees are not making one arrest per year each. They are averaging slightly over four arrests each year by the entire agency. In other words, we are spending approximately $200 million per arrest. Let me repeat that: we are spending approximately $200 million per arrest.

How is “arrest” defined? Custodial arrests? That number would indeed be very low. A more useful statistic would be number of incident/events handled or other measure of enforcement actions taken.

If custodial arrests were the sole measure of utility, there’d be tens of thousands of hard working cops out of jobs.

And finally, Professor Lustick wrote: “For the country as a whole, however, it has become maelstrom of waste.‘’ And there is no agency for which those words are more applicable than the Federal Air Marshal Service.

In case anyone is wondering, the Air Marshal Service has done nothing to me, and I know none of its employees. But I do know with absolute certainty that this $860 million we are about to give them could be better spent on thousands of other things.

As far as I’m concerned, it is just money going down a drain for the little good it will do. When we are so many trillions of dollars in debt, a national debt of over $13 trillion, we simply cannot afford to waste money in this way.

This guy has no idea what he doesn’t know.

You make some very valid points. Why not leave the airlines in charge of their own private security? Rather than taking tax dollars, and spending hundred of millions of dollars, have the airlines provide their own private security armed on the plane.

Bad apples everywhere.

I agree, however, this wasn’t my reason for starting this thread. My intention isn’t to defame the FAMs or anything of that nature but I do think the cost VS benefit is a real question to be asking of the American taxpayers.

How is “arrest” defined? Custodial arrests? That number would indeed be very low. A more useful statistic would be number of incident/events handled or other measure of enforcement actions taken.

If custodial arrests were the sole measure of utility, there’d be tens of thousands of hard working cops out of jobs.

I’m not really sure but it is a valid question and I don’t have any sort of info to bring to the topic.

I thought this video was interesting as well. FAMs stating that less than 1% of domestic flights have a Marshall onboard. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoaHZkOhGhs&feature=related There are a few others on Youtube that are kind of interesting if you do a search.

Because then you would be getting unarmed security guards like you do in shopping malls. Sounds like to me this guy has an axe to grind, not to mention he wants to talk about waste? Maybe that jackass should start with the recent health care bill that was rammed up our collective asses. :rolleyes:

Why not leave the airlines in charge of their own private security? Rather than taking tax dollars, and spending hundred of millions of dollars, have the airlines provide their own private security armed on the plane.

This. This and make the airline liable. Either they provide security that is adequate or they let law abiding citizens exercise their rights same as Starbucks.:smiley:

I really don’t care if they don’t make any arrests. The measure is how many terrorists whacked in the act. Not that they have done much better in regards to this measure (IE the Eunuch Bomber).

There are more people flying armed on flights than you may think. However, if there is a FAM onboard, we are subordinate to them. To the best of my understanding, everyone is subordinate to the captain.

I must say, I don’t even know what I don’t know when it comes to the FAMS. I applied to that agency at one time, but was picked up by someone else. They are supposed to be covert, so there isn’t really any overt deterrence there. Any prevention of post 9/11 terror incidents on flights I would assume is due to better intelligence work from our intelligence services, more than the FAMS.

My personal opinion regarding the govt. in general however is that once an agency is legitimized/created, it never (or rarely ever) is downsized, abolished, or relinquishes power. That tax money drain keeps on swirling…some being a lot more useful than others.


I still wonder if we would be better off with a more fully implemented armed pilot program rather than the halfassed one we have now along with the steps they took to make it harder to gain access to the cockpit.

As an airline pilot I have a pretty decent insight on the FAMS. Their task is to protect the cockpit, not deal with drunk and disorderly passengers. They are not supposed to act unless the cockpit door is breached. This is the reason why they are “useless” according to some. They are not on the plane to arrest people or anything of that nature. One of the main reason they dont do anything until the actual door is breached is in case of sleepers. I could care less if they ever arrest anybody, I like having them on my airplane and I think its money well spent. I think passengers like the thought that there might be a FAM on the airplane too. The FAMS are paid for via tax’s on the tickets so it really doesnt come out of the federal coffers, same with the TSA-paid for with ticket tax, not regular federal income tax. However my gut feeling is this money is skimmed off and used for other things and thus has to be “replaced” by federal income tax.

In regards to the FFDO program, it is a complete joke and needs a total overhaul. Cant really go into many more details about it for SSI, but IMO its a joke and most guys in it also feel this way. The training is top notch and I think the right intentions are there, just that the actual implementation is terrible.

Or have them train and hire armed guards to protect the cabin of the plane.

I’d say properly TRAIN and potentially arm some of the crew.
(they are on the planes anyway doing their job and they already have emergancy training)

In this day and age where some airlines are going to start charging extra if you want to eat and one if you want to use the pay-toilet.

Oh course Sen John Duncan thinks air-marshals are a waste.
when is the last time his rich politician ass had to fly a public commercial flights?

Wouldn’t that be like him wanting to cut the jobs of city police?
yet he doesn’t live in that city plus, he has his own 24/7 private security.

That’s also why we do not need air marshals because he has his own with him 24/7.

How much are we spending on paying for 27/7 private security for all these politicians? and i mean ALL, EVERY bodyguard, security ect…

Isn’t that like when Hillary Clinton wants to make handguns illegal yet she makes
damn sure every secret service agent, security member is well armed with at least one handgun.

Make his ass start flying public commercial flights with none if his personal security, then watch how fast he begs for some type of security system of someone armed and trained to be placed on his flight. :wink:

just saying: it’s far to easy to bitch and cry about paying for something you yourself never use or need. (fuck the millions of others that rely on it)


Not to start a pissing match with rjacobs but the material covered in this report and video contradicts his assertion that FAMs aren’t supposed to act until the cockpit’s breached. http://www.wsoctv.com/news/15282188/detail.html

I flew as a FAM for several years, RJacobs is correct, when it comes to the FAM mission as of when I flew, post 9/11. As I am not rated as a Commercial Pilot I cannot comment on the FFDO program.

What about the number of potential terrorists who decide not to act as a result of the deterrence?

We can’t always quantify everything to make a proper cost-benefit analysis of alternatives.

El Al has armed marshals on every flight. Granted, they have other security measures to screen passengers and all that. But still, after putting in marshals, never once has a flight been hijacked. It may be an incomplete and subjective example, but still.

Thanks for your input. I’m only going off of what’s “reported” in the “news” and trying to promote discussion on both sides. I think it’d turn into a pretty boring job a lot of days and that’s a good thing :wink:

Pray for peace: prepare for war.

I’ve never been in a car wreck but I still wear my seat belts. Until I can carry my gun on a plane, then the chance of an Air Marshall being on board will have to do. How many planes were hijacked by boxcutter weilding terrorists with no resistance?