Do we hate your AR???

General General Discussion
1

So I am reading this locked thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39588) and it made me laugh, but also made me want to give some input.

Before we go any further, those of you that were butt hurt in that thread, read this thread FIRST: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19307

So the OP in the first thread is upset that people are putting down his AR and or the AR of other members.

My first response is that this is an “open to the public” discussion forum and you are going to get people that are going to give you feedback (whether you want it or not). If you have thin skin, don’t post anything ever! Just sit back and read.

Now, the one-hundred dollar comment. Yes, you can in fact get into the following rifles for about $100 over what you would pay for a BM, RRA, etc. Some of these rifles would be the DDXV, Colt 6920 and by building a BCM and LMT from parts.

You say that you don’t have another $100? Really? So once you saved up the $900, you can never again (the rest of your life) come up with another $100??? I find this argument just silly. What you REALLY should be saying is that you are impatient and cannot wait so you are willing to settle. :wink:

Do you have to buy a new AR? Nope. I would argue that it is better to buy a used QUALITY AR VS a new (lesser quality) one. Shocking I know, but something to consider when buying an AR.

Let’s talk about “needs” and “uses.” M4C is not like some of the other AR forums. This one is focused on professional shooters (Military, Contractor’s, LE and Defensive minded Civy’s). The MAJORITY of the members on here will ONLY ACCEPT the best, most reliable weapons. They ACTUALLY train and shoot their weapons (again, quite shocking). The question that should always be asked is; “What is your life worth?” I don’t know about you, but mine is worth more than a DPMS! So if you do not fit into the above groups of people, then this forum might not be the best “fit” for you and you would be better served on a forum that is geared to you and your ideals.

The next question that I will get from reading the above statement is; “I am a dirt shooter, am I not welcome on M4C?” Of course you are. Just realize that you are surrounded by the above groups of people and they have a different view point about weapons and gear than you do.

So you say that you really don’t shoot your AR much, have no intention to ever use it to defend your life and are not interested in attending training with it. Is a DPMS, Oly, RRA, BM, etc “good enough” for your needs? They sure are. Buy whatever you like and enjoy it! Those AR’s will most likely fill your reqs perfectly and you will be very happy with one of them.

I will warn you though, if you run into a problem with one of the above AR’s, don’t post on here asking for help (as you will be told that you were stupid for buying one of these guns when you could have spent $100 more and gotten something good). :wink:

Just to recap so no one is confused:

  1. M4C is focused on people that are serious about training, quality gear and guns.
  2. If you are not interested in number 1, have thick skin and understand where your lane ends.
  3. M4C might not be the best fit for you.
  4. Buy whatever you like and enjoy it.

C4

2

Might I also humbly suggest this one
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39472

:wink:

3

To add insult to injury, let’s talk about Rob_S’s “famous” chart and what it really means.

First, do you need an AR that is ranked high in the chart? Nope.

Second, does that chart list features that really do not matter to most shooters? Yep.

What does the chart tell us? What it is showing is what the Govt looks for in a fighting weapon. The majority of the categories identify critical parts in the AR that need to be made or tested (to a certain standard) in order to increase the reliability of the weapon.

Understand that the Govt spec called out in the TDP is the LOWEST QUALITY allowed. To go above the spec is great, but to go below is a no no IMHO.

The question to ask yourself is if the gun you own or want to buy does not follow this entry level, Govt spec, what reqs is it following?? The painful answer is that the manufacturer is following the standard that puts the most money into their pocket.

C4

4

Have not read this one yet, but looks like it applies as well.

C4

5

Can this be stickied? It should be mandatory reading for all rookies.

As someone who bought a BM for personal defense, I learned the hard way. At that point, all I knew was chrome-lined barrel = GTG. I erroneously assumed all AR-15s were military-weapons without selective fire.

If I had been a member here, prior to having made that purchase, I would have been better off for headaches and wallet-beatings.

After coming here, I took the tough medicine, and tried to fix it, instead of bitch about it.

I often find posts on the “unreliability” of the AR/M4 on other forums, which, to me, screams, “Sample of One = I have a qualified opinion”.

Again, as you have pointed out, if you’ve managed to scrimp and save, and $100 is going to break your bank, you probably don’t need to be buying the AR in the first place.

What’s that old saying about spending a dollar to save a dime?

ETA: Let’s not forget the folks who want a new AR-15, have a $1200 budget, and that must include a light, an EOTech, and a CTR. The rifle can suffer, so the budget can allow for cool-guy widgets. Cart before horse syndome.

6

Thanks for the compliment, but am not sure that it is “sticky” worthy.

For the record, I own more RRA and BM AR’s than I do Colt’s. So can you fix or improve a lower quality AR? Sure can and that rifle will go on to give you years of enjoyment.

C4

7

The problem starts when THAT guy interjects himself into a serious weapons/tactics/gear discussion.

8

I think this is a very important point and I want to thank Navigating Collapse for bringing it up.

No one has suggested that you throw away your carbine and run out and buy a Colt. If so, send me the link because I want to see it for myself. What we are suggesting is that you can make a much more educated purchase that is based on more than, “I shot 100 rounds through mine and it’s good to go”!

We’re also about helping those that have purchased Bushmasters, RRA or other brands by providing info on where the weak spots are, what you might want to replace to avoid “common” problems or how to keep them running smoothly.

I’ve posted in numerous Bushmaster threads for example and told members to shot their carbines and replace parts X, Y and Z when they need to be replaced. Not run out and replace them right this second or your carbine will evaporate the first time you shoot it.

Keep in mind that a lot of info that is handed out here comes from real world, first hand experience. Use it if you can but don’t get bent out of shape if it doesn’t apply to you.

9

Right you are. Some do not realize what M4C is all about so I took the time to tell it like it is.

C4

10

For me, I see no problem with a buyer who can’t come up with the $100 and settles for 2nd tier AR. If this is indeed the case, then I have to assume one cannot purchase enough ammo to find a fault in the gun. If your shooting is limited and you STILL have problems, then it’s decision time on upgrading or trying to work out the kinks to have faith in the weapon.

I also like how things are not sugar coated here on M4. I had to wait several days after I registered and spent some time going through all the sticky’s and other threads before I could even ask my first question. This gave me more insight to what this site is about and soon realized I would be changing direction for a what I want in a battle gun.

While you can get M4 answers for most questions and applications for your AR’s, the experts here really aren’t impressed with how accurate my varmint AR is. (see why m4carbine)

Lumpy nailed it.

11

Exactly.

This is what always gives me the chuckles. Instead of getting butt-hurt over it, the fixes are relatively simple and affordable. My infuriation was caused by spending $1500 on a Bushmaster (in '07), and realising the opportunity cost of that purchase (DD, Etc.). Then realising its factory shortcomings the hard way.

I think one of the big contributions to the “Oh no, I bought a _________” is often a lack of options from local dealers and from shady gun-show dudes.

At gun shops I often hear either complete, outright, lies about AR-15s, or the person is massively misinformed.

I was actually told, quite recently that a TAPCO handguard was the “new Magpul one”, and that an ACOG was battery-powered, or the classic, “Well, it’s Mil-Spec”(in regards to a T3 manufacturer) when AR shopping with my brother.

My personal nature didn’t allow me to correct the guys; however, upon leaving this particular shop with my brother, I informed him I’d never buy anything from them again. As well, this absolutely HAS to lead to some of the thinking seen here by the panty-ruffled guys whose AR’s we “hate”.

There’s a local shop down here who is notorious for building cheap ARs on lowers, and selling them as items from that manufacturer.

The best advice I have is to buy something from a reputable dealer, from a manufacturer that has a track-record of quality.

12

Well said Grant!!! My life, at least to me, is worth the added cost of equipment and the cost of training.

13

I have to agree and say that the biggest benefit of this forum is that it protects the new buyer from the above! M4Carbine saved me from purchasing that “Government Issue DPMS”, or “Mil-Spec Bushmaster”. Now I don’t have a top tier rifle, I made an educated decision on what I wanted to purchase based on my needs, my requirements regarding shopping (I like to hold what I buy, not order it ((it’s a flaw I know))), and what I learned from this site. This site kept me from making a purchase I would have really regretted, but allowed me to make the best choice for my needs which was a high end 2nd tier rifle that is easily upgraded!

Now, as a civilian I want to put something out there that may be a bit harsh towards the individuals in question that started the original thread but it needs to be said:

I am a Civilian Dirt Shooter/Hunter, I have no intention of hunting with my AR unless in an emergency. I have other guns, that serve each purpose well, including dirt punching. Why then did I purchase an AR? I had no honest need for an AR. I bought my AR15 for it’s designed function! I purchased it as a tool I never want to have to use! But, I know my knowledge of how to use it could be life or death. I bought the AR knowing and understanding the reason it was designed and the intended application of the tool. So let’s not beat around the bush, that this gun’s intent is one thing and one thing only; To effectively kill or maim human beings in a 20th/21st century environment.

So if I bought it as a tool that I want to know how to use effectively but hope to never have to employ for it’s intended purpose, why in all hell would I buy a cheap one that can possibly fail? If I ever HAVE to use this firearm in a defensive situation I want to know it can perform and perform well.

With that said here is my question/statement for all of the people that complain about members ragging on their range toy: Why, other then to look cool would you purchase an AR simply as a range toy? It is very easy for me to interpret such complaints as those we are talking about in such a way. I come from the school of thought that if you buy crap it very easily may hurt you or get you hurt one day. In fact it could get you killed. I applied this mentality to my AR purchase, and now I’m not crying, or trying to play catch up.

A good comparison for me is that M4Carbine is made up people who take an attitude towards the M4 similar to the way people who buy their camping gear at REI look at outdoor sports. If your attitude towards firearms is similar to the attitude of “campers” who buy their stuff at Walmart or call RV vacations ‘camping’, then maybe this isn’t the forum for you.

14

OK, which one of you, or ones of you pissed in this guys Cheerios? :smiley:

From another site, not TOS.

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I guess he didn’t get to read these threads first. :frowning:

15

I try to avoid debating the facts with someone who’s wasted his money on an OLYMPIC ARMS or LWRC gun.

They’ll just have to learn through experience I guess. :frowning:

16

Having worked for my dealer friends at gun shows over the years, I have noticed that with a lot of people buying a gun is an emotional purchase. They want something and they want it now. Often customers have done no research and do not really know what they are looking at. With AR rifles, like 1911 pistols, it can become a problem because of the differences that exist manufacturer to manufacturer. The customers can’t rely on the rifle being well made since there are are over a dozen different makers and some make a better product than others. Typically, they rely on the salesman as an expert to tell them it’s great (often a mistake) and after purchasing it, the gun is a trophy for them representing a successful hunt. When they go online and start to discuss what they bought, there are always individuals who want to tell them they got junk, ripped off, etc.

The problem is no one wants to hear that they made a mistake or that that they’re not knowledgeable. Often a criticism of a gun or accessory is taken by the individual as a personal attack on who they are.

I think there are helpful people here, but given the sheer number of members it’s kind of difficult to make sure people keep it civil and intelligent. -I remember a thread where someone questioned why EOTech was allowed to advertise here given the internet chatter. One of the members went as far as to say something along the lines of Aimpoint = Professional and EOTech = Range Toy. It wasn’t until one of the guys who does contractor work said they were being used over there and had worked fine did the conversation change. Before he had said anything, it was like an EOTech blanket party. Once he spoke, it was OK for EOTech users to come out and say they had one, liked it, and it worked fine for them too. The funniest line that I recall from the thread was something like “The special operations guys use them and they work for them, but they haven’t had time yet to read that it sucks online.”

Sometimes the proponents for the best stuff do the worst job making their point and that’s when it becomes a total mess. Truth can be a destructive force and if one cares enough to tell someone the truth, one should care enough to help them rebuild. There’s a difference between someone saying a Bushmaster or Rock River isn’t up to snuff, sell it, and get a Daniel Defense rifle and someone saying, that while it wouldn’t be their first choice there are things that can be done to upgrade it; replace X parts as they wear out. Too often, people meet individuals online who just want to knock their sand castle down and that’s really not good for shooters as a group.

17

Excellent thread.

Here is a typical patern that leads to people getting butthurt about this topic.

Someone buys or owns a rifle that does not have the important features either because they bought it before they knew better or they did not have the money, and then start insisting that their rifle is ‘just as good as’ or that those features are not as important. This starts an argument.

My view is that if you want something AR like to shoot and generally plink, you can buy a gun without some of the features, as long as you keep this in mind.

But many people do this and later become unhappy with it and want something better. Typically if they waited longer, they might have been able to afford it.

My thought on this is that as long as you have a firearm that can serve well in the home defense role, you are better off waiting to get a better quality AR.

Of course all this has been complicated by the recent price hikes and availability problems and panic buying that has just calmed down.

In spite of all this, there are improvements you can buy for a reasonable amount that go a long way toward addressing an inferior AR. The first I can think of is buying a Bravo Co bolt and bolt carrier for $150. So if you had an AR without a lot of the mil spec features you could go a fair way to address some of the most significant ones by spending $150ish including shipping.

Other things, like a non-5.56mm chamber are more expensive to fix. The price of a Ned Christianson Chamber Reamer is about $250 shipped. At this point it starts making less economic sense to upgrade because you are talking a total of $400ish to upgrade a rifle (Bolt & bolt carrier and chamber reamer).

Also, if you are limited in funds, there are some less expensive guns that might not have all of the features that have proven to run well–namely the S&W M&P models.

Botom line is if I am going to stake my life on the gun for defensive purposes, or even run the gun in a lot of relatively high round count classes, I want something that has the same quality and reliability features as one that I would take on a battlefield. I’ve seen people waste their money on a $500 training class because their Bushmaster could not get through 10 rounds without a malfunction–and this was not even a shooting intensive class.

Rob S. had some signature line material in the locked thread :

“and what is this “insult a rifle”. The very usage of that term betrays the exact kind of thing we’re discussing in the link at the top of this post. You ain’t no Clint Eastwood, and that Oly Plinker ain’t no mule.”

“Personally I’d rather see the integrity of the site maintained than have a shiny happy place where all people are welcome. I’m here because we DON’T get a lot of bullshit from the 200-rounds-per-year-from-the-bench crowd.”

18

“The Chart
Has Struck Fear
Into the Hearts of Many”

19

I started that thread! And I did so because I was ignorant and had an honest question. The thread allowed for an open discussion amongst real users to discuss the applications of an accessory, and also allowed for those of us like myself to make an honest judgement of the value of that accessory. If you only have internet information to go on, then using the internet to gain valuable information is a good thing. Let’s face it there aren’t a lot of books out there to buy about the improvements in the M4 world.

If you search my posting history you will find I use this site often as a vetting place for possible purchases I find at gun stores. That is why I love this site!

20

You’re talking about TOS where common sense and reasoning is thrown out the window for +1 postings.

If that dude thinks we’re all about Colt it truly shows how little he knows. That means this forum REALLY isn’t for him. :wink: