So, I’m not sure if this is the right section to post this in. If not, I apologize, and please feel free to move it. Now, I believe everyone will be interested to hear this. I’m also hoping for some guidance as to what to do. I called a local range where I live in Dade county. I asked about any restrictions for class 3 items. The woman stated; bumpfiring, bumpfire stocks, and F/A are not allowed. She then stated that SBRs/suppressors are only allowed to be used IF you provide paperwork AND ALLOW THEM TO SCAN AND COPY your approvals to keep on file indefinitely “to ensure compliance w/ federal law”. Now, if I’m not mistaken, the only person legitimately able to request proof of approvals, is the ATF and only the ATF. So, just go to another range, right? Wrong. This is basically the only outdoor range you’re able to shoot past 25 yards. Am I able to take some sort of recourse (i.e report them to the ATF etc). Or should I just suck it up so I can actually get some decent range time? It really pisses me off that they would demand something like this, but I also really want to shoot, and this is pretty much my only option. Any and all insight will be appreciated!
that would piss me off. When I was in NOVA there was a range somewhere up there (can’t remember name or town) that wanted to see paperwork for class 3 stuff… never went back.
maybe we’re wrong to call BS on this, and if so I’m sure someone will be along shortly to inform us of that, but it annoys the hell out of me none the less and they wouldn’t get a penny from me
Thank you! As per everything I’ve read, it is PRIVATE tax information. For my and (unfortunately) ATFs eyes only. The real question is, since this is literally the only place to shoot. Should I suck it up? Or make the over hour drive to the next place to shoot, as well as less shoot less frequently due to the drive and many other time constraints.
hopefully someone will be along soon with some legal type advice. i’d say your next step depends partially on that
Is it close enough you can just swing by and be ready to shoot one day?
If so, I’d try it. Just show up and shoot. I don’t have to tell mine what I’m shooting, other than they check for steel core ammo. No way I’m letting anybody make a copy to keep. Their range, their rules. They’re no responsible for you being in compliance with federal law.
If asked, I’ll tell them I have the copies with me, but have never even showed them to anybody before. If pushed, I may show them…but never handing them over.
Double tap
If you really want to shoot there just give them a redacted copy of your form 4. Your name and the last 2 or 3 digits of your serial number with manufacturer and model and ATF approval signature, black out everything else. If that isnt good enough, find public land to shoot at or a private land owner that will let you shoot there.
Good idea. I considered doing this, and I probably will do so. I guess I’m also seeking advice as to what to do if “confronted” in any type of way.
Also a good idea. The problem is there is no public land you can legally shoot on here, same goes for private land. The laws specifically forbid it.
Yes, you are mistaken. Anyone can request proof. They could also request you show them your 1040s dating back 10 years in order to use THEIR range. They could also request you bring pizza and beer on each visit. You however, do not have to comply, and can take your business elsewhere.
Lol yes, I know they can technically ask whatever they want. But could they get in trouble with ATF for doing so? If, the ATF cared enough to do something about it?
Why would ATF care if you voluntarily show them your forms? Does the media get in trouble with the IRS when they asked Candidates to show their 1040s?
I get your problem, I think keeping them on file is ridiculous. Even asking to see them is over the top. They have zero liability. Do they run a BG check to make sure you are not a felon in possession when you show up with Title 1 guns?
Yes, true. I agree with you 100%. I’ll be sure to bring up the BGs for title 1s if they were to say anything to me. At the very least it’ll throw them for a loop and be funny to see their reactions, since they most definitely do not do that. It’s just really annoying. I wouldn’t even care, if there were other places around to shoot freely. Unfortunately, there is not.
It sounds like a stupid rule, but if you want to shoot at their range, then you must follow their stupid rules. No real way around that, is there?
Here is what I would do. Be nice. Show up to shoot and have your papers. Do you have a tablet? That way you can show them your paper on a PDF. Then if they say they want a copy just say you feel uncomfortable doing that. Then tell them they can inspect the firearm to verify it all matches. If they say it’s some sort of law, you are pretty well screwed. No way in hell you are going to educate someone on the spot.
My guess would be they give you the hard line over the phone, but once they meet you in person, they are ok with verification. You know they operate a gun range, it’s not like they are not gun friendly.
The only other option you have is call an ATF agent beforehand. Explain to him/her… then when they ( range ) say they need your papers for legal purposes, just politely say let me call the ATF agent I know because I was under the impression no one is supposed to have a copy of this tax paper but me… sort of like my income tax papers… again, be nice about it.
But telling people how things are going to be on their private land is a losing proposition.
The range I go to will say they want to know you have papers and I expect that’s an insurance thing more than anything else. Which you can appreciate, no range wants any manner of illegal activity going on no matter how small.
“to ensure compliance w/ federal law”
If you can politely ask “what law”… I’m no lawyer but I think everyone agrees there is no such law, which is why I think the phone vs in person may be two different stories.
I would not give them a copy of my forms or permit them to photocopy/photograph my forms with my name and address ect. No way. I’d rather not shoot with those items. Who knows how they would protect that data. Could come back to haunt you 30 years later, who knows. That is heebie jeebies for decades.
Flamesuit on.
Just hypothetically speaking, if you provided them with falsified forms (like numbers, address, name altered), but you have on your person real copies of the forms, would that be a crime? I don’t think so. They aren’t the ATF. You are required by law to provide the range with jack shit. You could even put on the COPY of the form somewhere tiny “document divergent from original for security purposes” and I guarantee you those fudds wouldn’t notice anything awry. They are not asking you to sign a notarized affidavit that you are providing them with the real forms. They obviously can make their own rules, but it is a bullshit kingdom. There is of course a far, far off chance one of the most hardcore fudds will somehow verify the validity of the document with their ATF pal. Probably not going to happen. Even if it did, you comply with real LEO to the fullest extent.
If you are encountered by an ATF person, let the ATF know you don’t trust this stranger who badgered you to know your address and full name, and how this suspicious guy kept asking probing questions and made you uncomfortable, did you know targeted armed robberies are on the rise? Could he be working with them? Did you see that ancient computer in their office? How could he understand basic cybersecurity protocol when he can’t even keep his ass crack from showing when he bends over. You are responsible to keep you firearms and family safe ect.
…and ask them if they check the vehicle registration and/or auto insurance of everybody that drives into their parking lot (assuming your state has some form of it like we do here) to make sure they’re in compliance. :sarcastic:
Think about what you just said. You want to make a counterfeit BATF tax stamp letter and give it to a stranger.
The first part is a crime. The second part is akin to daring to be caught counterfeiting BATF tax forms.
Too bad he’s not in Las Vegas… he could make some fake casino chips too.
I used to carry a copy of my SBR tax stamps with me. I haven’t done that in years. I’d go somewhere else. That would piss me off. Why’d you even ask? Just go and shoot. It’s not their business. When you called you created the issue.
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Gibbs Rule #18: It’s better to seek forgiveness than ask permission.
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