Diagnosing Students

Training Training and Tactics
1

All, so by no means am I an “instructor” but as the most interested/savvy at my unit I have essentially become my units firearms teacher.

Two issues I ran into a lot today out on the range that I wasn’t quite sure how to help with were,

While doing M9 drills, I had a guy who was shooting decent groups but straight down from his point of aim. I told him I figured he was probably flinching or locking his elbows. I know flinching/anticipating is usually low left/right depending on handedness but I don’t know about straight down. Another guy was doing the same thing but straight up from the point of aim, that one I didn’t even have a good guess for.

Another common issue, even with myself sometimes, is when zeroing the M4 with 3 shot groups and you get 2 shots really close, maybe even touching, and a third off on its own. Usually complicated by bracketing the point of aim. I will always ask the guy if he knows which shot the off one was, as sometimes you know right away you screwed that up, if they do I tell them to adjust off the group of 2. If they have no idea, if it’s kinda close Ill have them adjust off “center mass” and try again, go over the fundamentals and such, and see what happens. If they keep doing it Ill have them shoot another group without adjusting and see if something “usable” appears, use that and move on.

Also today, I saw a guy who would be, say, 3" high and right. Adjust properly (I watched him do it and count the “clicks”) and be 3" low and left. This happened twice where he ended up going “twice as far” so I had him shoot again without adjusting, found a usable group of shots to adjust from and moved on.

Just looking for some help dealing with these kinds of things so I can teach my guys better.

2

Could be “jerking” of the trigger with the pistol low shots, I see this with our P229s alot as they are double action only and the trigger starts to feel like it’s “hanging up” just before releasing the hammer. The shooter will jerk through the resistance causing the muzzle to dip, rather than pull through it with consistency.
For the straight up shots, either “heeling” (a form of anticipation) or “riding the recoil”
Of course don’t rule out sight picture/sight alignment…I like the term “equal light, equal height” …pretty self explanatory.

3

A couple of questions. How far was the range he was shooting? How far was the point of impact from the point of aim? how big of a group was he shooting?

Matt

4

Straight down to me indicates shifting his focus to the target and looking over the sights just prior to breaking the shot.

5

This chart is helpful in regards to diagnosing pistol shooters, but you should identify the error by looking at the student as well:

Shooting good groups, but grouping low, is usually the case where a shooter is looking at the target, and not the sights, or if he is pulling the weapon down, by breaking the wrist.

If he identifies that he is indeed looking at the target, and not his sights, have him focus on sight alignment for a few strings until he gets it right. If you suspect that he is pulling the weapon down, ie breaking the wrist, there is a test you can do that I have had success with.

Have the shooter hand you his weapon, make sure he has cleared it, and then tell him to face the target. You state that you will load the gun, and then hand it to him. Instead of chambering a round, you just rack the gun with no magazine in it, then insert the magazine. You have handed him a weapon that will go “click” when he presses the trigger. If he is anticipating the recoil and trying to counter it by pulling the weapon down, you will see it instantly.

When grouping high it indicates that he is breaking his wrist up, ie pullng the pistol up. Look at the shooter, and try to see if it is taking place. You also need to make sure that he is not covering the target with the front sight post, but bisecting it.

For your zeroing issues, the issues stem from one of two things:

  1. Change in position during the course of fire
  2. Lack of concentration

Even a minor change in position, for example stock placement, cheek weld etc, can cause a shift in POI. Make sure that the shooters are in a good, comfortable position before shooting, so they don’t have to change their body during the zeroing string.

Lack of concentration is just that, they lose focus either by being tired from having an uncomfortable position, from taking too long to aim, or that they just want to get the last shot off. To counter this, you need to stress the importance of a good, comfortable shooting position, conduct the zero process without time constraints telling them to take their time, and have them take breaks or start their aiming process over if they feel their eyes getting strained.

A couple of pointers. I would reccomend you shoot at least 4 rounds per string when zeroing. I don’t know how you guys do it, but we work out the mean point of impact based off the group, and adjust that MPOI towards the center of the bullseye. In order to accomplish this, you need your shooters to group consistently, as well as shooting enough rounds to produce valid data. 3 rounds is just to few, IMO. Depending on ammo constraints, my view is that people focus too much on hitting the bullseye, rather than focusing on actual groups. Unless the group is off paper, or just about, I suggest not adjusting POI until the shooter has fired 5-6 consistent groups. That way you are not adjusting a shooter who is just shooting poorly, in which case the adjustments could be off du to him making mistakes.

Last, never tell people to shift their point of aim. They must always aim at the same spot for every string. If not, you will be stuck chasing shooter error instead of actually fixing the problem.

6

Yep, this is the most likely. Stop looking at his target, now, what’s happening on that end has already been established. Instead, do as Arctic states; set yourself somewhere ahead of his right shoulder (presuming a righty…and TELL him you’re gonna do it, first) and watch what he’s doing while he’s shooting. You’re looking at about a basketball-diameter area. I’d be willing to bet that on those shots that dive, you’ll see eyes swiveling focus from the target to the front sight and back again. If the shooter needs to squint or close the off eye to maintain front sight focus, let 'em do it; some folks literally can’t shoot with both eyes open, just like there’s folks that literally don’t have a dominant eye.

Americans are pretty bloody lazy, and most of us are usually only fed enough material by public schools to satisfy poorly-executed standardized testing (instead of educated). We tend to vapor-lock on extreme spread. Mean-radius involves math and thinking, and doesn’t provide for instant gratification, which makes the practice as publcly appealing as incestuous necro-bestiality (i.e., f**king the dead family dog). In this case, both use of extreme-spread and limiting zeroing groups to three rounds is part the US military’s lockstep way of doing things…dude unlikely to be able to break from either due to time restrictions regarding group measurements, and doctrine/round-count Nazis regarding number of rounds per group.

If you’ve got folks that end up chasing the bull despite making what should be appropriate adjustments, Arctic’s on the right track on all points.

We ARE talking irons, right…?

7

Very common problem (see it all the time). IMHO, this is one of the hardest problems to deal with (as there is no real fix AND there can be several reasons for it).

When I see this, I usually have the student align the sights and I pull the trigger (if you do not know how to do this, PM me). By doing this, I at least know if the student is aligning his sights properly and if he is breaking his wrists (which is rarely the cause IMHO).

Depending on how far down the shots are, the problem is either looking over the sights (which results in a minor 6 o’clock position) OR is driving the gun forward right before it goes bang (anticipating the recoil). This results in a much lower 6 o’clock position.

Part of the cure is IDing the issue to the shooter. The rest is on them to practice proper sight alignment and trigger pull.

C4

8

Good advice here, most shooters I’ve worked with learn real quick what to fix all on their own when doing this. Depending on what your unit/department policies are, you could load the magazine for the shooter, mixing dummy ammunition in with the live rounds. Ensure the shooter is watching that front sight. You and the shooter will see where that front sight goes when they “fire” that dummy round. If you are unauthorized to mix dummy rounds with love rounds, the quoted advice above has the same effect.

9

Surprizingly, I’ve had good luck just saying drop the magazine, give me TWO shots. Watch as they nearly fall over from anticipation.
Some guys catch this but then I mention they didn’t anticipate because they knew the gun was empty and I get them either way…

10

Or they catch it but still flinch anyway! :banghead:

11

Agree, but what are your methods for helping them to overcome the problem?

For rifle, I will also suggest to the OP that it may work better to stress/require consistent grouping first then move on to zero.

12

Once they see where that front sight goes as in using dummy rounds they usually catch on. It’s mostly mental. A few dry fires with NO movement and they remember what we taught them in the classroom. We hesitate in stopping the line for more than a minute or so to remind them about the fundamentals. I get about an hour of dry fire and weapon manipulation with inert training guns in the classroom an hour before we leave for the range. We really harp at them for their trigger pull and manipulation. An hour isn’t enough but it’s all I get. Our curriculum is pretty strict. Depending on the class size, we have to cover allot of ground pretty quick…

13

I get the “end”, but cannot honestly understand the “means”. Having them drop the magazine as part of the shooting string doesn’t seem to contribute to the overall training.

With my method, they either start from the holster or position 3 (high compressed ready), and they proceed with the drill.

And maybe I misunderstood the final part, but it’s not about “getting them”, it’s about confirming a shooter error for the instructor, as well as making the shooter aware of it him/herself.

14

Call me retarded…:suicide:

I googled “ball and dummy” for the first time tonight. I had heard about the drill, but not checked it out.

It’s pretty much what you are describing here, and is a very good option if mixing dummy rounds is authorized.

15

Ball and dummy is great and probably underutilized in the training world, but at some point the student has to make friends with the impending “Boom” and recoil.

16

I agree 100 % with this. I personally know the challenges of overcoming the natural instinct to react to the loud “boom” and recoil, which took me many many (hundreds, maybe 1,000) rounds to get used to. Although I now know what needs to happen to overcome the anticipation, and can give suggestions to my shooters that help most of them, there are few that simply can not get over the anticipation. Even with drills like ball and dummy, my “words of wisdom” and repetition, repetition and more repetition($$$$), I have yet to find a solid way to instruct these “trouble” students how to stop anticipating. What works for me, or this guy, or that gal, may not work for everyone else. I realize shooting maybe just isn’t for everyone, but as a newer firearms instructor, I often ask myself where (and if) I am going wrong, or what can I say or do to help. Any of you have any other advice for those that simply can not stop anticipating other than what’s been discussed in this thread so far?

17

Having up to 24 shooters on the line gives little time to find and diagnose a problem. Taking their magazine means they will hit an empty chamber on the second pull of the trigger. If they aren’t savy they will jerk or do whatever it is that is showing on the target. When they SEE the front sight dip or move they also SEE what is wrong and should recall the instruction that had previously during the dry fire class. If they know what is about to happen they will hold the gun still while pulling the trigger on the second shot and NOT jerk or whatever.
They know then that THEY caused the shots to break from the P.O.A.
If ask the guy why he didn’t jerk when he had been, he will say he knew the gun was empty and didn’t want to show a flinch etc.
There is half the battle won right there. He KNEW not to jerk.
SO KEEP DOING WHAT YOU JUST DID BUT WITH AMMO IN THE GUN!
I just “got them” to see what the problem is! It would be nice to slip a dummy round in the mag (ball & dummy) but that isnt always feasable…
I have no method I claim as mine. Nothing in shooting a handgun is really new in the last 40 years and we go full circle often when it comes to fundamentals. Sure we had what is considered high speed and tactically sound but it really isn’t that different from Col Jeff’s info from a long time ago…

I keep a log for all my shooting from about 1977 (I turned 21 in 1976) and all my different gun from competition etc…
If I told you what the total was you wouldn’t believe me so I won’t say. I bought a 1050 the first year they were sold (they wouldn’t sell me an RL 1000). I know how many rounds have been loaded on it.
Point? It may have taken allot of shooting but I figured out a long time ago what it takes to shoot a revolver or auto pistol correctly!

18

@mick610:

Like I said, I understand WHY you make them drop the magazine - you want to provoke their bad habit of pulling the gun down in anticipation. My point was that I disagree with the method. Having them drop the magazine, and then firing the gun without the magazine has no further application or relevance to the rest of the training IMO.

How many AI’s do you usually have with 24 shooters on the line? For me, quality takes precedence over quantity, so if there are few AI’s I would divide the shooters into two groups of 12 (if I had 24 shooters). If possible, depending on level of proficiency, the shooters can also help diagnosing each other during the strings of fire using the buddy system.

The way I work, is that I use the results on the target to decide which student I want to observe. I start individual focus after maybe 2-3 strings. Some people may disagree, but personally I choose to focus on improving the poor shooters.

And when I said “my method”, I meant the method I described in my post, not that it was MY method. I haven’t invented jack. My point, maybe poorly conveyed, was that I try to use a method that flows with the drill, so they get one extra repetition of the draw, grip, presentation etc.

19

If it was only that easy. I mentioned I contract now for a large Federal Agency (DHS). We have a strict schedule and there is no luxury of picking students you want to observe and hand feed.

“Having them drop the magazine, and then firing the gun without the magazine has no further application or relevance to the rest of the training IMO.”

You may believe what you want but I have success with this. When a shooter sees his mistake he can understand it and try to correct. Or when he knows what is about to happens and corrects it for that dry fire, that works too. Your opinion doesn’t count for us. If I can’t get them right in the classroom, I only get so much to do on the line.
My PD had over 600 Officers and that gave us a little time. Now I have thousands…
In the last 3 years we’ve had 4000 students and fired over 760,000 rounds. There isn’t allot of time no matter how many instructors are on the line and I won’t be the one holding up that line for more than about 30 seconds at a time.
I did my training in 88. I shoot 4 times every week. I earned a GM card in LTD in 2000 and have had success in all my shooting. Yes, I know how to impart that to the students…IF I’m allowed…

20

You don’t really appreciate people being of a different opinion, do you? No need to whip out resumés.

By all means, carry on with what you are doing. I was just making an observation in regards to the “magazine dropping” thing. Not intended as a slight against you, personally.