The Designated Marksman came into his own during the GWOT; DMs are considered to be regular infantrymen who are tasked to provide precision fire out to 600m. By default, most have been armed with 5.56 AR derivatives, since that was what was available. However, the Army also issued M14s due to the 5.56 rounds’ percieved lack of range and striking energy, while the Marines are fully fielding the Mk12. The Army also issues DMs everything from M4s with ACOGs to the latest mod of EBR. Several of our European allies, such as the Brits, have decided that a semi-auto 7.62 is needed for the DM role, and have adopted an AR10 varient for the task.
So, let’s hear your thoughts on what a proper DM rifle should be: caliber, barrel length, optics, etc.
Talking to the guys in my company who carried the EBR in Afghanistan last year, almost all of them disliked it for one reason or another. I do not know how old/new they were. One problem with an m14 based solution is that they had to keep and maintain two rifles and the m14s rarely were taken on missions because of weight and bulk and a perceived lack of need.
Our battalion gave ours back (away?) so I’m not sure what we will replace them with, if anything.
I’d prefer something like the mk12 in an intermediate caliber. With a 1-6 power optic please.
I think 1 of 2 options: either an 18" barreled AR with a DD Lite rail, A5 stock and a compact scope (ACOG to Nightforce 2.5X10X36 or something in between).
Or…
The LMT MWS with a decent optic.
I’ll not mention any other caliber (besides 5.56 or 7.62) because that just isn’t going to happen.
I was my platoon’s SDM for my first 2 months or so in-country, before I was “promoted” to SAW gunner. I went to LRM (Long Range Marksmanship) school at Ft Campbell, taught by instructors from Benning, for 3 weeks of instruction covering shooting, range estimation, and target detection. Our issue rifle was an M14 “upgraded” with a Sage EBR chassis and a 7.62 ACOG. Of course I had to use a 5.56 M4 ACOG because someone managed to break our 7.62 model previously. Luckily, when I got overseas I managed to acquire a TPE (Theatre Provided Equipment) 10X fixed Leupold. I had previously privately purchased 6 M14 mags and a Harris Bipod as I was told I’d be the SDM for the entire tour and was only supplied with 3 mags and a Grip-pod. There was no supply of M118LR to be had so I had to delink belted M80 ball. It was still plenty accurate out to 600M or so, and probably could have pushed it further, but had limited range time and I was just glad to get it zeroed. The only thing else that was added was a PEQ-2A. While I loved the M14, after handling another TPE M14 with an original Walnut stock I realized just how much heavier the EBR stock was and would dream on one day having something lighter (my prayers were answered with a M249, FML). To complicate matters, we weren’t allowed to take them apart to clean them because they were afraid we’d lose or damage the EBR chassis, so all my cleaning was done with a boresnake, some Q-tips, and a barber brush.
I think the Brits have it right, the LMT .308 with the right optic and training would be an ideal SDM weapon. It’s accurate, reliable, and not too bulky. It is heavy, but you can’t have everything, esp in 7.62x51. Plus an ACOG properly calibrated and zeroed can get hits on target fast without having to get all the training on mil-dots and worrying about DOPE, remember SDM’s aren’t snipers and aren’t supposed to be snipers, we’re grunts with a little talent and training, that’s all.
There is really no “one” rifle that would meet the requirements for a DM. If you look at the operating envelope for extending the range of the basic assault rifle or battle rifle then I think the optic determines the capability. With a variable power optic either 5.56 or 7.62 with a barrel from 16-18" makes sense. The current offerings of 7.62 rifle is fantastic of late with the SCAR 17, LMT MWS, Knights SR25.
So a 5.56 with a free floated match barrel of 16-18", a quality variable optic from 1-8+ power, an improved trigger, or a 7.62 caliber weapon equipped the same way would easily fulfill the SDM role, obviously a supply of good OTM ammo would enable the user to get the most out of the weapon.
I like 3rd ID’s concept from early OIF and consequently built one just like it. For what’s available the M110 SASS seems perfect for the role, maybe with a different optic with less magnification.
Since it may be called upon to substitute for a LMG, I vote for the 7.62. Better range and penetration. It should be self-loading, free floated, and with a 2-7X illuminated reticle optic. It must have a bipod, but no shooting sling, only a nice wide simple carrying strap. Maximum weight, 10 pounds loaded.
The AR10 format in a high quality make would be best. This way if the DM is taken out, the rifle would be most easily used by others without training. I think the Stoner gas system gives the best accuracy.
Not in the Military myself,but from what I have read & what I have learned from talking with my Son-In-Law,( He had 2 full all expenses paid vacation in the Beautiful MTNs Of Afghanistan),a 308/7.62 MM rifle is nice !! Whatever configuration you want is fine in my book,but I would think the LMT would be a Great choice ! I have M1a’s and really like the 18 Inch BBLs,so I would imagine that in a AR Based Weapon,that would be about perfect,but ya could probably get away with a 16 Inch BBL. Sights would be up for grabs I guess,ACOGs are awesome,but the Fixed power could be a issue possibly,so a quality variable scope would be probably the best choice !
In this thread feel free to speculate on what the ancient Greeks would call the eidolon of the Designated Marksman rifle: the ideal form it should take.
kaltesherz mentioned above the fact that DM often times are not trained to the highest standards, issued appropriate ammo, given enough range time, or even the proper rifle/optic combo. In this case, perhaps a 5.56 AR with ACOG might be ideal. In fact, the Brits are issuing a 6X ACOG with their new DM rifle, and also the Aussies have just adopted the HK 417 and will use the same optic on it. Still, from my experience, the ACOG is just not good enough glass to squeeze the best performance out of a precision rifle, especially an accurate piece like the Mk12. On the other hand, a 3-9X like the M12 is usually issued with is not much good for the DM when he is functioning as a basic rifleman.
Mose people don’t get this simple but limiting factor.
The SDM is not a sniper, doesn’t need a sniper rifle, and doesn’t have time to train like a sniper.
Pick an M4/A4 that shoots well, drop an ACOG on it and you have a weapon that is more capable than the training time available makes an average SDM. The M4 Sniper, AKA Recce would be the next step if training time and skill can be increased.
I think the MK12 is too heavy and the scope to big to do the regular infantry job, same goes for a 7.62 rifle. It would make them a liability in close or urban terrain.
The United States Army trains basic rifle qualification to 300 Meters. That is the common standard, and even then we suck at it.
Not all Soldiers are gun guys. In fact very, very, very few are.
This is one of three M4 carbines built at the USAMU as prototypes (one for the 82nd; one for the 101st; and one remaining at the AMU). 18-inch stainless mid-length with Geissele trigger and Daniel Defense M4-mid rail.
Occam’s Razor: the simplest solution is usually the best.
AMU’s charter is to hot-rod and win, show it to Big Army.
Big Army’s program managers are supposed to develop stuff for the Big Army – it’s what gets Colonels promoted to General. They give us stuff like thick BDUs, new PT clothes every few years, and ACU-pattern cammies.
The one in the photo was requested by the 82nd’s G3 for the Division Small Arms Master Gunner.
I vote for a 30 caliber weapon, as the purpose is to take out a threat that can’t be reached by normal firepower with authority! That M110 looks like a very good system. As was said very common type of the system to M16A2/M4’s so anyone could pick it up and use it!
I think that with proper training and equipment an auto-loading 7.62 with one of the new shiny 1-8s solution is the best of the realistically possible.
Unfortunately, to be able to take advantage of the performance increase the individual users will need training. From my experience the training will need to be about a month long, which is not likely given contemporary pre-deployment training schedules.
Lacking this dedicated specialization training, they are probably better off with a Mk12 type option. I carried a SAM-R in OIF 2, and while it was a great shooter, the 20" barrel and A2 stock severely hampered vehicle employment and enclosure clearing. It wasn’t a big deal then, as most guys were dragging A4s around, but chopping 2 to 4 inches of barrel and having a collapsible/adjustable stock makes life simpler for the dude lugging it around.
