Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) to be argued before SCOTUS this week

Personally I’d like to see SCOTUS rule that the federal government should have no involvement in defining what marriage is or between whom is it legal, and by extension there should not be any sort of tax incentives/benefits for being married, period. At most it should be state issue, certainly not federal. Do I support gay marriage? No, but again I don’t think this is an institution that the government has any business being involved in in the first place. One of many I’ll concede.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/wide-range-potential-outcomes-gay-marriage-18796896#.UU8MoleGHac

The Supreme Court can choose from a wide array of outcomes in ruling on California’s Proposition 8 ban on same-sex marriage and the federal Defense of Marriage Act.

The federal law, known by the shorthand DOMA, defines marriage as the union of a man and a woman and therefore keeps legally married gay Americans from collecting a range of federal benefits that generally are available to married people.

The cases will be argued Tuesday and Wednesday; rulings are not likely before late June.

The justices might come out with rulings that are simple, clear and dramatic. Or they might opt for something narrow and legalistic.

The court could strike down dozens of state laws that limit marriage to heterosexual couples, but it also could uphold gay marriage bans or say nothing meaningful about the issue at all.

A look at potential outcomes for the Proposition 8 case and then for the case about DOMA:

———

Q. What if the Supreme Court upholds Proposition 8?

A. This would leave gay Californians without the right to marry in the state and would tell the roughly 40 states that do not allow same-sex marriages that there is no constitutional problem in limiting marriage to a man and a woman.

Such an outcome probably would trigger a political campaign in California to repeal Proposition 8 through a ballot measure and could give impetus to similar voter or legislative efforts in other states.

———

Q. What if the court strikes down Proposition 8?

A. A ruling in favor of the two same-sex couples who sued to invalidate the voter-approved gay marriage ban could produce one of three possibilities. The broadest would apply across the country, in effect invalidating constitutional provisions or statutes against gay marriage everywhere.

Or a majority of the justices could agree on a middle option that applies only to California as well as Colorado, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Nevada, New Jersey, Oregon, and Rhode Island. Those states already treat gay and straight couples the same in almost every respect through civil unions or domestic partnerships. The only difference is that gay couples are not allowed to marry. Gov. John Hickenlooper, D-Colo., signed his state’s civil unions law Thursday.

This “nine-state solution” would say that the Constitution forbids states to withhold marriage from same-sex couples while giving them all the basic rights of married people. But this ruling would not implicate marriage bans in other states and would leave open the question of whether states could deprive gay couples of any rights at all.

The narrowest of these potential outcomes would apply to California only. The justices essentially would adopt the rationale of the federal appeals court that found that California could not take away the right to marry that had been granted by the state Supreme Court in 2008 before Proposition 8 passed later that year.

In addition, if the Supreme Court were to rule that gays and lesbians are deserving of special protection from discriminatory laws, it is unlikely that any state ban on same-sex marriage could survive long, even if the justices don’t issue an especially broad ruling in this case.

———

Q. Are there other potential outcomes?

A. Yes, the court has a technical way out of the case without deciding anything about same-sex marriage. The Proposition 8 challengers argue that the private parties defending the provision — members of the group that helped put the ban on the ballot — did not have the right to appeal the trial judge’s initial decision striking it down or that of the federal appeals court.

The justices sometimes attach great importance to this concept, known as standing. If they find Proposition 8’s proponents lack standing, the justices also would find the Supreme Court has no basis on which to decide the case.

The most likely outcome of such a ruling also would throw out the appeals court decision that struck down the ban but would leave in place the trial court ruling in favor same-sex marriage. At the very least, the two same-sex couples almost certainly would be granted a marriage license, and Gov. Jerry Brown, D-Calif., who opposes Proposition 8, probably would give county clerks the go-ahead to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

———

Q. Are the possibilities for the DOMA case as complicated?

A. No, although there are some technical issues that could get in the way of a significant ruling.

Q. What happens if the court upholds Section 3 of DOMA, defining marriage for purposes of federal law as the union of a man and a woman?

A. Upholding DOMA would not affect state laws regarding marriage but would keep in place federal statutes and rules that prevent legally married gay Americans from receiving a range of benefits that are otherwise available to married people. These benefits include breaks on estate taxes, health insurance for spouses of federal workers and Social Security survivor benefits.

———

Q. What if the court strikes down the DOMA provision?

A. A ruling against DOMA would allow legally married gay couples, or in some cases, a surviving spouse in a same-sex marriage, to receive benefits and tax breaks resulting from more than 1,000 federal statutes in which marital status is relevant. For 83-year-old Edith Windsor, a New York widow whose case is before the court, such a ruling would give her a refund of $363,000 in estate taxes that were paid after the death of her spouse, Thea Spyer.

———

Q. What procedural problems could prevent the court from reaching a decision about DOMA?

A. As in the Proposition 8 case, there are questions about whether the House Republican leadership has the right to bring a court case to defend the law because the Obama administration decided not to.

House Republicans argue that the administration forfeited its right to participate in the case because it changed its position and now argues that the provision is unconstitutional.

If the Supreme Court finds that it does not have the authority to hear the case, Windsor probably would still get her refund because she won in the lower courts, but there would be no definitive decision about the law from the nation’s highest court and it would remain on the books.

Q. What if the Supreme Court upholds Proposition 8?

A. This would leave gay Californians without the right to marry in the state and would tell the roughly 40 states that do not allow same-sex marriages that there is no constitutional problem in limiting marriage to a man and a woman.

limiting marriage to a man and a woman”? Well, that’s ABC for you. That is rather like them saying "We don’t want to limit the meaning “assault rifle” to mean only a rifle that is select-fire capable.

Same-Sex Marriage and the Assault on Moral Reasoning

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2010/08/1490/

What Is Marriage? Man and Woman: A Defense

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1722155&utm_source=RTA+Snell+Marriage+Book+Review&utm_campaign=winstorg&utm_medium=email

How so called “gay marriage” does in fact affect all marriages.

THE AUDACITY OF THE STATE
http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=23-01-028-f#ixzz2OU2YyUJ4

Naked Before the State

To make matters very much worse, the parens patriae power has recently received an enormous boost from another feature of the contraceptive society: same-sex “marriage.” Though most people have not yet realized it, the advent of same-sex marriage has transformed marriage from a pre-political institution conferring “divine and human rights,” as the Roman jurist Modestinus put it, into a mere legal construct at the gift and disposal of the state. The legal terrain has thus changed dramatically, along with the cultural—something I have tried to show in a little book called Nation of Bastards. The family is ceasing to be what the Universal Declaration of Human Rights confesses it to be, viz., “the natural and fundamental group unit of society.”

Replaced by a kaleidoscope of transient sexual and psychological configurations, which serve chiefly to make children of adults and adults of children, the declining family is ceding enormous tracts of social and legal territory to the state. At law, parent-child relationships are losing their a priori status and privilege. Crafty fools ask foolish fools, “What harm does same-sex marriage do to your marriage, or to your family?” The truthful answer is: Same-sex marriage makes us all chattels of the state, because the state, in presuming to define the substance rather than the accidents of marriage, has made marriage itself a state artifact.

WHY FIGHT SAME-SEX MARRIAGE?
Is There Really That Much at Stake?

http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=25-01-024-f#ixzz2OU3CcLnc

A Tool of the State

Six years ago, when same-sex marriage became law in Canada, the new legislation quietly acknowledged this. In its consequential amendments section, Bill C-38 struck out the language of “natural parent,” “blood relationship,” etc., from all Canadian laws. Wherever they were found, these expressions were replaced with “legal parent,” “legal relationship,” and so forth.

That was strictly necessary. “Marriage” was now a legal fiction, a tool of the state, not a natural and pre-political institution recognized and in certain respects (age, consanguinity, consent, exclusivity) regulated by the state. And the state’s goal, as directed by its courts, was to assure absolute equality for same-sex couples. The problem? Same-sex couples could be parents, but not parents of common children. Granting them adoption rights could not fully address the difference. Where natural equality was impossible, however, formal or legal equality was required. To achieve it, “heterosexual marriages” had to be conformed in law to “homosexual marriages.” The latter produced non-reproductive units, constituted not by nature but by law; the former had therefore to be put on the same footing, and were.

The aim of such legislation, as F. C. DeCoste has observed in “Courting Leviathan” (Alberta Law Review, 2005),

is to de-naturalize the family by rendering familial relationships, in their entirety, expressions of law.
But relationships of that sort—bled as they are of the stuff of social tradition and experience—are no
longer family relationships at all. They are rather policy relationships, defined and imposed by the state.

Here we have what is perhaps the most pressing reason why same-sex marriage should be fought, and fought vigorously. It is a reason that neither the proponents nor the opponents of same-sex marriage have properly debated or thought through. In attacking “heterosexual monogamy,” same-sex marriage does away with the very institution—the only institution we have—that exists precisely in order to support the natural family and to affirm its independence from the state. In doing so, it effectively makes every citizen a ward of the state, by turning his or her most fundamental human connections into legal constructs at the state’s gift and disposal.

This is just another government infringement on liberty. Not legalizing gay marriage will not prevent people from being gay anymore than gun laws will prevent criminals from being criminals. Straight couples will still marry and have kids.

Belloc does not see liberty like you or I do. We had a long discussion about this a while back.

I kind of think like the OP. Remove marriage from the law. Make marriage a completely religious thing that has nothing to do with taxes, benefits, etc. Change the current thing to civil union and transfer the legal benefits from marriage to CUs. Anyone who wants benefits must get a CU, if married or not.

Marriage should have as much meaning to the legal system as having completed the hajj… None whatsoever. Leave both to churches to fight over but stop government discrimination.

Works for me.

Civil unions between consenting adults for all legal and governmental matters.

Let marriages be the purview of religious institutions. And each denomination is free to make their own determination with respect to recognizing gay marriage.

I concur.

And I’ll take it a step further to include polygamy. I don’t see any reason why someone would want more than one spouse (and certainly not simultaneously), but so long as they’re consenting adults and their religion condones it…

“Being gay”?
Care to explain exactly how harbouring homosexual inclinations, or the desire to sodomize or be sodomized by another male, is somehow an ontology?
Although no one ever has, perhaps you feel that you are equal to the task.

Remembered well. But there is a reason why no one actually attempts to refute the logical and reasoned arguments made in those links. Namely, and quite frankly, they can’t.

That’s not true. It’s more that a writer can do a lot of damage in only a few pages. I could sit here and write 20 sentences --each of them based on some kind of fallacy-- and challenge anyone to refute them, then declare myself the winner by default when nobody does. But the problem is that it could take 3 or 4 paragraphs just to untangle and properly deal with each statement. Ain’t nobody got time for that. It’s the same deal as in the Pope thread, which I just read over again. The juice is just not worth the squeeze. If I’m going to take the time to respond in depth, it’s going to be to someone’s own thoughts, which they’ve taken the time to craft and type. Who would sit here and argue with some ghost author behind a link?

I posted this question to a homosexual “marriage” supporter elsewhere:

So what if a heterosexual man wants to marry his heterosexual best friend, or even his own brother, or both, for the sole reason of securing any and all accompanying benefits from that “marriage”, since you are claiming that you want an end to “marriage discrimination” do you also favor eliminating those restrictions which presently prohibit them from “marrying”?

It sadly bears much reminding that no one can claim an inalienable right to keep and bear arms without at one and the same time believing in objective reality, truth, and morality.

Sorry, but sloth as an excuse is rather without dignity.

Their should be no government benefits tied to marriage, period. Gay, straight, or otherwise. I understand what your saying in regards to allowing gay marriage and it being a net negative for the moral fabric of society but let the people decide for themselves what is or is not appropriate. But If a guy wants to marry his mail box and is willing to be admonished by his neighbors for doing so then be my guest, however neither he nor anyone else should get a tax credit for having done so. It doesn’t get more equality sensitive than that.

Right, because not arguing with a ghost-author on M4C = slothliness and laziness as if taking the time to do so wouldn’t cause me a great opportunity-cost, paid in my ability to do something productive. This is what they call a false dichotomy. See what I mean about those single sentence fallacies?

I was just pointing out that if you want to have a discussion, you should try not to argue by link-dropping.

Now you are simply being less than honest. You claim at one and the same time that you don’t respond to my own thoughts on the Pope thread for the stated reason that “it’s not worth the juice”, and now grumble about not responding to my posts on this thread because they contain links to offsite articles which make arguments for a stated position to which my thoughts are in agreement.

And I fail to see how repeatedly taking the time to respond to posts with the rebuttal that it’s not worth your time to respond to posts improves your position.

So what if a heterosexual woman wants to marry her heterosexual (or homosexual for that matter) male best friend for the sole reason of securing any and all accompanying benefits from that “marriage”?

FWIW, I see this happen ALL THE TIME in the military.

Fair question. There’s a film with Adam Sandler where he in fact “marries” his best friend, (I think one of them is a fireman) in order to get on his state health plan. But first there must be an investigation to make sure they are “really homosexuals”. The problem here is the contradictory message and philosophical incoherence. If the government has no right to deny a “marriage” to two male homosexuals who wish to sodomise each other, then it has no right to deny marriage to two heterosexual males who have no desire whatsoever to sodomise each other.

Also, if you grant and permit that the government does in fact have the Orwellian power and authority to change the very meaning of the term marriage into something that it has never meant before, then you in fact concede that government has every right with that same power and authority to change the meaning of “assault rifle” to even include a single shot .22 Derringer.

If that is the world you would defend and support, you are welcome to it. For myself, I firmly hold that not one single iota of the Obama, Feinstein, Boxer, Cuomo, et al. agenda is good for America or for freedom and liberty.

Then explain your position, in your own words.

  1. Should I take this to mean that in fact when it comes to the leftist agenda concerning guns you stand opposed to Obama, Feinstein, O’Malley, Boxer, Cuomo, and Bloomberg, but on the issue of homosexual “marriage” you march in leftist lockstep with them?

  2. Women and men are ontologically distinct. But homosexual desire is an orientation, not an ontology. (Of course pedophilia is also apparently now considered an orientation.) Or do you in fact also claim that the sexual desire to sodomise other males is in fact an ontology? If so, make your case.

  3. If you concede and acknowledge that in fact government has the Orwellian power and authority to change the definition of marriage, then do you at the same time acknowledge or deny it that same power and authority to change the meaning of “assault rifle” to mean anything whatsoever that fires a chambered round?

  4. If the most fundamental principle of marriage is simply arbitrary, then explain how all subordinate principles are not then rendered necessarily arbitrary.

I’m not sure what definition of marriage you believe to be the “true one” but christians do not own the term marriage. Marriage was practiced prior and separately to christianity and our government.

Why is there a focus on sodomy in this thread? Lesbians do not (usually) sodomize each other, it has nothing to do with the definition of gayness. The act of gay sex has nothing to do with this discussion. Two hetero couples can still be married even if one is paralyzed or otherwise unable to have hetero sex. Gays do not define themselves by what specifically they do in the bedroom and we should not define them as such ether. Only being able to LOVE someone of your gender IS a way of being, not an action.