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For those of us that are non Mil or LEO, the chances of us being involved in more than one shooting indecent are slim. Hence why training is such an important factor in reducing that hesitation or body alarm response when our time comes to protect ourselves and the lives of other people.
For those of you that have hunted armed men or civies who were forced to act in such a manner that resulted in the death of an individual, how were you able to deal with the psychological impacts the first time you took an individuals life?
I really have had no issues with the first one because it was fast and there was no doubt that he was a bad guy. There was no other solution. Dude came out of a doorway blasting with an AK and attempted to ruin my day. He missed, I didn’t. I didnt care why he started shooting, I just got my team and went looking for his buddies.
Through 40 months in combat there have been some incidents that arent as clear. but I ask myself these questions. Did I do everything prior to change the outcome? Did I apply all of my knowledge to the situation? Did I overreact?
I attempt to put things into perspective and make sure it is as honest as possible. You can lie to yourself. I have seen guys try to and it eats them up inside.
First off I signed for infantry and volunteered for as many deployments as I could get on, so my mindset is a little different from most anyway. But ultimately it came down to the fact that they were trying to kill me. I wanted as many of us as possible to go home alive.
I would start by reading some books like On Combat and On Killing. Best way to deal is to know what to expect beforehand. These are good easy reads.
I think that way too much time is spent on the “oh my god, I just shot someone” response, and not nearly enough spent on the “I just rocked that f***er!” response. People that prepare and train for the most violent of confrontations do not generally react to winning a gunfight by holding their faces and crying themselves to sleep. In fact, winning a gunfight usually induces a flood of endorphins and a “winner’s high” in the prepared shooter.
My point is not that killing is pleasurable, bur rather that winning/surviving is a good thing, and sometimes our bodies/minds reinforce that fact. Don’t feel like a monster if you don’t blow snot-bubbles over some scumbag you put into a perpetual dirt-nap.
Excerpts of one of David Grossman’s lectures to LEO in audio. His remarks on post-SD are worth listening to. The Bullet Proof Mind
Your eloquence is a perpetual source of inspiration, sir.
To paraphrase a friend I made at a training course: He wanted to take my life…to make my wife have to bury me…to make my kids see daddy stretched out in a coffin never to come home again. Screw. Him.
I am by no means an expert in the use of lethal force or dealing with the psychological aftermath of having successfully used lethal force to defend my life…but in general the guys I’ve talked to about it have basically the same outlook on it:
He was trying to kill me. I wasn’t about to let him. He lost. Sucks to be him.
a Warrior should take great pleasure in the killing of his enemies. for in doing so, he is fulfilling his only purpose.
I think part of the " oh my God I just shot someone" response stems from a persons moral, ethical, and religious background. I was watching the mil channel not to long ago about a group of Green Berets in Iraq in the 90’s who were set out on a mission that went south within hours, and ended up having to ward off a hundred something enemy personnel with help of air support. Anyways while interviewing the platoon a few of them broke down into tears a) because that day was the first experience of taking someone’s life b) all mentioned what type of religious background they stem from. This got me thinking that these are some of the hardest and toughest MF’s known to man, yet they are still emotionally distraught at an incident that happened well over 15yrs ago(not sure when that segment was filmed).
How do you go about preparing to elude those emotions attached to such an act?
It comes down to this basic principle: It is either them or me and I don’t want it to be me.
I don’t regret killing the Tailban I did on my last deployment and I will not regret killing them on my next deployment. They aim to kill my brothers and I’ll be damned if I let one of them get away with that.
If I have to waste someone in the civilian world it’s because I’ve had to go to that resort to protect others or myself. No reason to feel bad and it freed up more oxygen for me.
Ltc. David Grossman’s seminar “A Bullet Proof Mind”, mentioned by me a few posts earlier, deals exactly with answering that question. He primarily lectures to LEOs on this subject, but occasionally does so to the general public. When he does, the seminars sell out quickly.
I missed where someone had mentioned that earlier.
I already order on killing and on combat.
Thanks for the help
I can’t speak for those Green Berets, but I can speak on my experiences and what I see/saw in about 600 veterans of the toughest combat since Hue.
None spoke of trouble with killing the clearly defined enemy.
The problems came from incidents that led to injury or death of non-hostiles or unknowns. The biggest problems come from seeing your brothers injured or killed and wondering what you could have done to prevent it. That’s what nightmares are made of.
My men and my friends range from deeply religious to completely atheist, and I saw no correlation between religion and guilt of killing an enemy. Maybe we just instilled/reinforced a combat mindset through proper training.
You also have to remeber that late 80s/early 90s SF is pretty different than 2002 to present SF. The same could be said for all comabt arms MOSs.
I personally think that their emotions are tied to being in a hopeless situation where they were all sure that they were going to die or be captured and tortured. In my experience, those issues make for much greater phychological impact than schwacking somebody that is trying to do the same to you.
Just what I saw and experienced.
FWIW- most of us that do this for a living don’t get all hot and bothered about Grossman’s books, especially since a lot of his “data” came from SLA Marshall, who basically made up data to support his theories instead of the other way around.
I come from a very religious background. I have never cried or lost sleep over the people that I shot. Other aspects of combat, sure but not that. But I think that it is all about mindset.
I wouldn’t say I am very religious, but am religious none the less. When I returned from my first deployment, I had a little bit of trouble coping not because I killed someone but I had questions about the possibilty of killing the wrong someone. Some of the firefights were in were pretty chaotic, and innocent people were around as well as the Bad guys. I’m not a professional psychiatrist but I am willing to bet that this is the questiong that haunts most. Did the person I kill deserve it? Was he/she really a bad person. The best advise I could give to those people is to seek out their pastor or Chaplain. That is what I did. Not only did he show me in the bible where it is acceptable in certain situations but is commanded. As far as the, “What if I killed an innocent?” question, his advise was that all we can do is pray about that one. I always prayed everyday that I would not be the cause of an innocents deaths.
There really isn’t a magic answer to this question. I can only tell how I approached it. Like you said, everyone comes from different backgrounds, ethics and beliefs so there is not really a magic answer here. That being said, when there is no doubt the dead is a truly bad person, or you would have been dead if it wasn’t them, then there should be no remorse.
I remember a buddy of mine got back from Iraq in 2004-ish, 2005-ish. We were all eating at a Mexican restaurant getting slammed.
Thanks to the social lubricant, I popped the question, “So, how hard is it to actually kill some shitbird”.
He responded with something along the lines of, “You know the guy’s trying to kill you, and he’s most likely a pretty foul rube, so…”
I came back with, “No, I think we’ve got a misunderstanding. I was talking about the physical difficulties; the effective performance of the 5.56”.
:eek:
The only psychological impacts I’ve heard from my buddy in 10th Group are that he’s not overly stoked about 9mm ball’s performance, and that using AP is a PITA.
I think the difference lies in those with a “Warrior Mindset” and those without.
+1 here to these books.
Dr Grossman is spot on with the info he shares for all.
Mind set is everything,
I would submit that killing an enemy combatant is way different then a police officer killing a fellow american in the line of duty.
Taking the shot is pure and simple repatitive training, reactive or required. The down side is you can’t get on the freedom bird and fly back to the world, you live in that community, you will continue to serve that community and most likely that dead persons family.
You are constantantly reminded by sight, smell, sound, innuendo “real and preceived”.
Time and your belief in God seems to be the only real measure of getting one’s life back in order.
D Williams
You will find a very detailed psychological analysis of historical combatants field performance, response to combat and how modern training methods have changed things quite dramatically by reading “On Killing” by LTC. David Grossman."
Some of your proposition is right on, some of it would be well informed by reading this material. I highly recommend it.
Wow, I must be a pansie assed she boy! I tried to get into hunting when I was about 17 and I shot a squirel (spelling?) with a 12g shotgun and I knocked it out of the V of the tree is was in. I ran up all excited and it was sucking air in one hole that a BB punched in its throat and blowing blood bubbles out that hole. It was trying to scury away while emiting a bubbly screach sound from that hole and I took a final shot at it from a few feet away. I was feeling like a real ass-hat at this point. I left it there and walked away, never again to shoot at a living object.
I own many firearms, but I really don’t think I have the mindset to cope well with taking life. I also am not overly religious, but I have a internal compass that tells me that every animal from Humans to rodents has the same right to life, and taking that life is not something I wish to partake in without a very good reason.
I am very glad for the fact that there are men and women out there in the capacity of both Soldiers and LEO that can somehow handle this, because without them I am very sure that our world would be a very nasty and dangerous place. So to be clear, I thank you all that are the true warriors and the sheepdogs of those of us that depend on you to fight the good fight for us. Not everyone is cut out for the duty that you perform.
I shoot and I practice in hopes that if the terrible day ever came to pass before me that I had to step up to the plate… I hope that I can perform as required to stay alive or keep my loved ones alive… but honestly, I would rather one of you warriors do it! God help me find the strength if that day ever confronts me.
Thank you, to all that serve. Without you, we are all doomed.