I have a trust with NFA items on it. The trust was originally made in VA. I have since moved to MS. I have already filed the proper paper work (Form 5320.20) to change addresses. However, after attempting to purchase an NFA item in MS, I was informed that my VA trust is no longer valid and I would have to create a new one for MS. I would like to keep my items consolidated on the same trust, and as such my question is:
Do you have to involve a dealer when transferring items you currently own, to yourself on another trust? If so, its a no go as I am not going to be without items I’ve already waited 9+ months for in some cases, just for simplicity’s sake. I understand it would cost another $200 per item to transfer from one trust to the other, and obviously thats not ideal however I would be be willing to do it, over time, bit by bit, if it did not involve giving my item to a dealer and letting it sit in their possession for another 3-4 months.
Also, has anyone experienced changing states with a Trust and then attempted to purchase NFA items with their original trust? Is there someway to amend the trust to allow for legality in multiple states?
Any info would be appreciated, would greatly appreciate any SOT’s chiming in with personal knowledge…
Your trust is valid. To my knowledge, all you need to do is amend the trust for MS and you are good to go.
You do not need involve a dealer for the transfer to yourself. You just fill out the forms, pay the tax and wait. If needed, you would do this after you make the address change.
Just a note…if you’ve already moved, and don’t have approved 5320.20 forms, you’re breaking federal law (except for suppressors and AOWs).
As mentioned, no dealer would be involved.
Depending on the number of items you have, it’s probably cheaper to have a lawyer in MS look over your trust for any missing state-level requirements, and just amend the trust instead of starting over and transferring them.
Did the dealer mention why it wasn’t legal? Simply the address? That’s not a good reason, but you could also change that with an amendment. Most trusts shouldn’t have an address anyway, even though addresses may be included in helping to identify trustees & beneficiaries.
Consult a lawyer. That said, your VA based trust is still valid for the items already on it. You may need a new trust for future purchases, but transfers of items from your old trust to a new trust or yourself will cost you the transfer tax on each item you move.
I had approved 5320.20’s in hand before I moved, and also I was told by the ATF they are not required for suppressors… although I still completed them just to be safe.
My VA trust has no address, however a trust has to abide by state laws particular to where you live in order to be valid. My trust has verbiage specific to VA law to prove validity, such as who gets what, who can do what, probate and so on and so forth. That being said, it does not specifically state MS law, codes, statutes or provisions pertaining to trust law, so I assume that is why I was told it wasn’t valid for this state.
From what I have read from the ATF, as long as the trust set up in one state meets or exceeds the minimum requirements in another state, it is valid there also. I am just unsure as to how to go about amending it, and what specific verbiage must be stated. I would like to amend the trust to be valid in all states but Maine (Maine has a funky gun trust law), so I guess I will have to track down an MS lawyer that specializes in NFA…
My trust was made by Laurel T. Edwards in Richmond, VA. Currently waiting for a response from her regarding how to amend or if it is necessary.
You are all assuming his trust was legal in the first place, many of these junk form trusts create a lot of problems. Take your issue to an NFA attorney, he will be able to sort it out.
I just stated I had an NFA attorney complete my trust. If my so called “junk trust” wasn’t legal the NFA would have simply denied my forms, plain and simple.
Read more, talk less and maybe you wont come off as abrasive next time.
from what I was told they are a “compliance officer” not sure who or what that is but since they are the only class 3 in my area, I’m SOL if they wont accept it… They didn’t try to bait and switch me into purchasing a trust through them or any scam like that, they just simply said my VA trust wont be able to be used here in MS.
Simply getting a tax stamp does not mean that the BATFE has made a legal review of your trust to establish its validity. They use a check list based on each state’s trust laws. For example, if the examiner finds a creator/grantor, a trustee, and a beneficiary, and they are not all the same person, and the document has been executed, then BATFE will proceed. There may still be legal deficiencies within the trust that BATFE does not look for.
I attended a legal continuing education presentation where BATFE counsel gave an example of a bunch of trusts that came through from the same area. The grantor, trustee, and primary beneficiary were different, but the alternate beneficiary was the same person on all these trusts. It appeared to him that someone passed their trust to others to revise. No subsequent person changed the alt. bene. Some guy’s wife or girlfriend is due to inherit a bunch of NFA items some day. A valid trust designation but probably not what anyone but the first grantor intended.
Simply because the same person is listed as the alternate beneficiary on multiple trusts does not itself present cause for concern to its validity. That’s simply multiple people using the same blanket trust to avoid creating their own. While not advisable and ideal, that doesn’t mean the trust itself is illegal, unless beneficiaries of the trust or the grantor of the trust had no knowledge and no willful intent to be present on such a document and their notarized signature was fraudulently copied, that in itself is forgery and that act itself is illegal.
However; this is all digressing from my original question. I had a licensed NFA attorney from the State of Virginia draw up my trust, with the individuals I chose myself to be listed as benefactors. I then, in my presence had the documents notarized by all applicable parties. My trust is legal and sound. But that does not mean my trust is legal and sound in multiple jurisdictions/states. Hence the reason I asked for specific advice from individuals who have experienced moving with a trust and then attempting to purchase items in their new state with their old trust. What they were required to do, if anything, and what specific verbiage was required for that trust to be considered legal.
And your point has just further reinstated my viewpoint that my trust is actually valid in this state as well and will satisfy any ATF requirements, as they only look to see if it meets specific minimum level requirements, and that the trust has been executed.
Anyone can call themselves a “compliance officer.” Ask the compliance officer if corporations incorporated in Delaware are valid in MS.
The compliance officer’s first duty is to preserve his FFL and avoid legal problems for his business. The missed profit on your transaction is not worth it. It is easier to create some BS excuse about VA trusts not being in valid in MS, etc. Rather than beat around with some suspect opinion on trust validity, he should just say he is not comfortable with the deal and decline the transaction.
My advice to call the attorney who made your trust and speak with her directly. As you can see there are already conflicting and confusing statements being made here.
This, in my opinion is the best reason to use an attorney who knows NFA trusts. As their client, they are a resource to give you legal advice when situations like this arise. OP, please let us know your attorney’s reply.
I did my original trust on Willmaker Pro. I used it successfully to buy several NFA items, but as someone stated, it didn’t mean the trust was completely in order. I believe it was, but last year I decided to ammend it and had a lawyer handle the revisions. It was worth the peace of mind for $225 knowing I can call the attorney now instead of asking the internet.
Just spoke to the lawyer who drew up my trust. She stated my trust is valid in most states, as all but a few have adopted the Universal Trust Code (including MS), and my trust was drafted in accordance with the UTC. She stated it is the NFA examiners job to judge the validity of a trust, not the dealer. Therefore I am more than able to use my current trust for future purchases. She is currently drafting an amendment letter for me to attach to the trust, reflecting my change of address, which will hopefully appease my local dealer as well.
So in the end, the moral of the story is. If your trust is completed and executed by an experienced NFA attorney in accordance with the UTC, you should be fine when making purchases in another state if you move… barring any unforeseen circumstances… this is not legal advice and ymmv…