All,
Just when you thought you had everything…another range report!
Yesterday I took my brand new DDM4V3 (midlength Fixed iron sights) to the range. I shot approximatley 500 rounds of different manufacturers ammo, brass cased included Rem 55gr, Fed XM193, PMC bronze and some unknown 55gr (looks like eastern european). Steel cased was Tula 55gr and Wolf 55gr. Magazines were from BCM, Orlite, Magpul, Brownells (tan 20 round) C Products and D&H Industries. I “borrowed” a VTAC sling from my S&W for the standing portion of range time.
The rifle is going to be used for HD, plinking and some day, some classes. The fit and finish of the DD was as expected. Only a small rattle with the gas tube (normal correct??)
I used iron sights only (FSB and DD A1.5 rear) and zeroed at 100yrds. I took me quite a while and a few rounds to get to a satisfactory point. I had to lower the FS much more than I expected and I monkeyed with the rear sight way too much (facepalm)
Once I got rounds on paper, I went loaded magazine after magazine and ran it. All except 2 Fail to feed events happened with the brass cased ammo (this was magazine related, the Brownells 20 round, which has been marked and segregated). I was pleased with the performance so far. With the brass cased ammo supply extinguished, I continued with the steel case and thats when the trouble started.
About every 3rd round in any steel cased ammo magazine, I got a Fail to extract. Most of the cases were stuck HARD in the chamber and this required a cleaning rod inserted from the muzzle end and some tapping to get the case out. I noticed that the extracted case had a small portion of the rim broken off. (extractor issue??)
After the 3rd or 4th magazine of this, I contemplated ending the range session as the Fail to Extract stuff was becoming a pain. I used a chamber brush a couple of times and lubed the BCG.
Overall, I was pleased with the rifle. It ran very well with the brass and group size wasn’t too bad (I know, I need more trigger time).
I was disappointed with the steel case problem though. I have never seen so many Fail to Extract, especially with a brand new rifle. I am sure that the problem was the ammo. I am glad I found out the trouble at this session and not at a class or HD situation. I know now not to use the steel stuff for either of those 2 situations.
Some questions I have thought about:
Could shooting steel case first before brass have helped my FTE problem??
Why would it take so long to get on paper?? (other than operator error :rolleyes:)
Any thoughts, comments or questions are most welcome.
Thank you for reading.
Duece.
My DDXV had issues with (wolf, bear) steal case ammo until I switched lube to Mobile 1 20/50w engine oil. Since then I have had 0 issues shooting ONLY this ammo (~2k rounds now). I haven’t cleaned the rifle in 1500+ rounds and only apply oil ~500 rounds or so.
Deuce,
Congrats on a great rifle. I have a DDm4v1 and v5. The v5 is brand new and only has 200 rounds through it, all brass. The v1 has about 800 rounds of primarily brass. I was disappointed that it didn’t run Tula or Wolf reliably, then I found a thread on here that the bcg needed to be wet. I added a little extra oil and shot 100 rounds flawlessly. I’ve also read on here not to mix the brass and steel when shooting. I’ll try it on the middy this weekend.
Eric
Guys,
Thanks for your responses. I know about the whole Brass vs Steel situation. I thought that some people did mix when shooting? I think you are right Eric, next time I will try some Steel cased and ONLY use it and see what happens. I lubed the BCG liberally and it still had the Fail to Extract problems. Steel cased ammo seemed to be loaded to a lesser degree as far as the powder charge was concerned. Much less recoil may not be such a good thing, especially if reliable feeding is the desire.
Nice rifle Deuce, it’s one on my purchase list as well. I have a DD M4V1 and have only run it with 10w/30 Mobile 1 and have had no issue with FTEs at all shooting either steel or brass and running both in the same session. Definitely try applying more lube, I think this may alleviate your issue. Let us know how it goes. Have a good one.
For my rifle at least, it wasn’t even “more lube”, once I changed to Mobile 1 it will shoot any ammo (mixing or not steel / brass) EVERY shot, 0 failures.
this guy has failures to extract with hard stuck cases, ripping pieces of the rim off the case and the general consensus seems to be the amount or type of LUBE??? :blink:
this is exactly the type of crap responses that cause people here to become unhinged. I’m not with the rest of the crowd where the slightest deviation in component choice is cause for ridicule but this is ridiculous.
there is a difference between opinion and misinformation and IMO, this just couldn’t be any more misguided. it is the unwillingness to allow any of this type of BS that makes this site valuable and while some get off track defending that, this is one of the times it’s warranted.
now, if anyone can explain how lube has anything to do with the OP problems, I’d be willing to listen. However, if you can’t prove it, you better be quick with a retraction and apology. for my part, I will do the same…
I think you are right. I can’t lube the chamber or the cases and yes, my FTEs were HARD stuck cases with bits of the rim of said cases ripped off when I finaly did get the stuck case out of the chamber.
Could I switch my sequence of shooting brass case vs steel case?? Is there a “brake in” period to which steel cased ammo will run reliably??
I don’t honestly know. my Daniel Defense M4 does not like Wolf. not failures to extract - it has failures to eject which points to a cycling issue. yours is an extraction issue…
it is however, 100% reliable with any of the brass cased M193 rounds I have put through it. I accept that this gun needs/wants good ammo to be reliable. it is my primary SD gun so I don’t intend on running any Wolf for that purpose.
on the other hand, my BCM middy shoots Wolf fine. maybe the chamber is different. whenever I have shot steel case ammo, I usually do it in a training class and use nothing but and don’t mix them together.
I know there’s not a lot of support for cleaning your rifle on this site but I do give it a once over after every hard use. I would try giving the chamber a very thorough cleaning and sticking to one kind of ammo or the other for a while and see how it handles it. if you are still having problems with known good ammo, then give the boys at DD a call and they’ll be sure to take notice…
Yeah, its the gas tube alright, it rattles when moved. I remember reading somewhere on here that it is normal to have a little bit of movement and rattle sound. Any thoughts on this anyone??
My DDM4 v4 eats Herters, Wolf, Tula anything i’ve tried. It does have the Carbine length Gas system. I would keep it well lubed and try a lighter buffer. IMO
Are you thinking about the gas o-rings on the bolt having a little wiggle room by chance? I know it has been discussed before if its ok or not, answer to that of course is yes. As for the gas tube, don’t think a little wiggle is a bad thing, especially if its only when the BCG isn’t in battery, it will probably seal itself off on its own unless its grossly undercut, problems I see arising from having it wiggle around any is gas escaping which will cause short stroking.
Since the rim of your case is being chipped your extractor and spring is showing signs of good strength where not being chipped would indicate the extractor and spring are weak and slipping off the round without extracting it.
Shooting mixed ammo usually causes problems if its steel then brass where the steel doesn’t seal up the chamber like brass so there is increased chamber fowling where then putting brass into it the brass is to tight when it expands.
Although steel usually doesn’t expand like brass does where it seals the chamber well it does still expand some and unlike brass, steel does not contract when it cools and the pressure drops which can lead it to being to tight for extraction with the right amount of fouling and tightness of the chamber.
In the end it appears to me to be an issue with the steel being to tight in the chamber due to fouling or similar issue but at the same time using a chamber brush should of helped with fouling so it might just be its expanding and seizing up in the chamber by itself.
Now I don’t want to suggest this since I am not all knowing but it seems to me and I would probably try it on my own “dime” but perhaps an increase in buffer weight will give a less “violent” extraction allowing the extractor to work its magic better. Granted this might cause short stroking with other ammunition that works fine now. Not sure if the company or someone could of f’ed up on the buffer but might want to glance and make sure its H marked.
Just my thoughts.
As for taking a while to get on paper. Could be operator error where you have/use a weird sight picture, not accurate without a warm up, accurate in general. Could be it just wasn’t near being on target out of box. Who can say on this one. Will say my irons didn’t need to much adjusting and were pretty good for being on paper @100 yards out of box, actually have to use the irons to lolly pop the Eotech’s dot on top of the front post to sight it in well. Funny thing is when I first went at sighting it in, it was at a range that bore sighted with a laser to make sure sites were not way off, they only looked at the Eotech and not the irons yet the Eotech was way off and I corrected it to the irons people ruling out irons I guess :happy:
Just a thought, but it appears that your rifle is fine. All of your problems with stuck cases are obviously ammo related. You say so yourself.
So if the problem is extracting notoriously inconsistent performing ammunition, like the steel cased ammo is known to be, do you really want to make changes to your rifle to accommodate this particular ammo?
Steel is a poor choice to make cartridges out of. If you were an ammunition engineer it would be your last choice of materials in designing a cartridge. It is cheap. That is its only redeeming quality.
Why not just use brass ammo and enjoy your rifle. Clean it, lube it and shoot it.
I guess absent that, and if you really want to troubleshoot it you could hit the chamber with a reamer. But I personally would not touch a new DD rifle in an attempt to accommodate steel cases.
I stand humbly corrected. Pissing in your cheerios was unintentional. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong so I retract my previous statements and will STFU and just listen from this point forward.
whenever I have shot steel case ammo, I usually do it in a training class and use nothing but and don’t mix them together.