DA/SA unsuitable for the tactical population?

Training Training and Tactics
1

I see some instructors advocating a DA/SA pistol for CCW, because the DA pull reduce the risk for NDs, and give you time to evaluate the situation before the hammer falls. Many agencys also issue a DA/SA pistol.

I have experience with DA/SA pistols competing in practical shooting, but I use a striker pistol for duty. I have some observations that I would like to get challenged.

Line your sights up on a target that requires a precision shot, put your finger on the trigger and time how long it takes from beep to shot. This simulates a situation where a police officer/civilian hold somebody at gun point, when the situation suddenly require a precision shot. Time this with a DA, SA and striker pull.

I timed myself on an upper A zone target at 10 meter. My results were: DA (no prepping): 0,5 s, SA: 0,2 s, Striker: 0,25 s.

As an USPSA competitor the long DA pull doesn’t matter as much, I can prep my trigger during my draw, and hardly lose any time. Prepping the trigger on the draw is less of an alternative in tactical situations, where there is a thin line between prepping the trigger, and a ND, especially when a really fast precision shot is required. It doesn’t matter as much if you know it is a shoot situation when you draw your gun. This is even worse when holding someone at gun point, if the situation requires you to shoot right now, DA is twice as slow as SA/striker per my personal results…

For these reasons my view is that DA isn’t really suited neither for civilians nor the tactical population. Where is my logic flawed? :confused:

2

Most people who successfully defend themselves with guns rarely practice and don’t give much thought to DA or striker. Many use revolvers.

Not all hammer fired guns have the same trigger pull weight. My CZ P07 is about 4# lighter than my Beretta 92/Sig 226/SW 5906. The 5906 is lighter than the 92 and the 226.

I don’t over think It. Just practice with what ya got

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

3

This. I can outshoot a lot of people regardless of what gun they or I have.
There are a lot of people who can outshoot me regardless of what gun they or I have.

The hardware difference is largely overshadowed by basic skills.

Another way of looking at it: Can you smash a rough DA trigger and get black on a b8 at 25yds? What about a SA tigger? It would be hard to find someone who could consistently do it with SA and not DA.

Edit- are you saying you cannot shoot faster than .5 splits if its dao? Honestly, .5 is a long time, I think dedicated da dry fire could really shave that down substantially.

4

I could not disagree more, my CZ CGW P07 is among the best pistols I have ever had.

The DA is so smooth, that I can make good first round hits with the pistol from 0 to 25 meters.

I know of multiple vets from Delta that love the CZ P09/07.

99% of the time the pistol you will find me with is the CZ, it is just that great.

5

As large numbers of your HSLD types have been putting bad guys down for decades with DA/SA and DA guns, seems a rather moot point. You practice with what you have until you get the results/performance you need. There’s many a combat DA shooter that are fast and accurate.

6

As Louis Awerbuck often said," its the Indian, not the arrow".

7

Your logic is flawed in that you are using a sample size of one (you) and your skill level and knowledge is unquantifiable thus can’t be used to generalize or determine suitability of either skilled civilian or professional tactical shooters use of a DA/SA gun.

8

You talk about a precision shot like a hostage situation but keep assuming the DA only alternative not DA/SA. I think you’re basically arguing that DAO is a poor choice.

Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / CRPA / FPC / USCCA member

9

Agreed. Mine is a non-Cajunized P07. I can ring 6" steel plates at 30 yards in my DA. It took time, and practice, but after a good day and 250 rounds, I could hit it regularly without issue.

Just like my Glock 26, it’s a hard bugger to shoot, but I can hit those 6" plates with that too from 25-30. It takes practice, dry-fire, and slow intentional shots; this will build your technique, and it gets faster and faster. But it’s not impossible in either platform. I will admit, the SA is amazing with the P07.

10

What’s the most important shot? Your first one. As I said during a draw the slower DA trigger is mitigated by prepping it during the draw, noe time is really lost. The same is almost true for bringing the gun up from a ready position.

My view is that the DA pull is significantly slower than a SA/striker trigger pull. If some HSLD guys can refer to some numbers on the timer that proves otherwise, I’m all ears. For ME it is twice as slow, finger on trigger, no prep, but sights lined up from 10-15 yards. This is the reality of the precision shooting that’s needed in a dynamic situation where non-hostiles are present.

An example from the world of USPSA: If engaging a fast top swinger, would you like to do it with a DA pull or a SA/striker pull?

11

Is the swinger shooting back?

You’ve answered the question for you. Don’t try answering it for everyone.

Thank goodness the decade of LEO’s who largely carried DA/SA auto’s didn’t know how screwed they were, not to mention those currently running DA/SA pistols.

The money shot is the first shot. The mistake a lot of people carrying DA/SA pistols make is not shooting enough first shot DA. Instead many kind of limp through the DA to get to the SA. Bet they won’t be doing that in a gun fight.

12

On point, as usual.

OP, the fact that you have bothered to use a timer likely means you practice enough that it wouldn’t matter. The fact that most users don’t own a shot timer also means it wouldn’t matter in their use.

Humans are more important than hardware.

13

Which instructors are advocating DA/SA pistols to reduce the probability of a Negligent Discharge? I would like to read some of their material and their reasons for coming to that conclusion.

I was present on two occasions in which a person armed with a DA/SA pistol with an incredibly heavy DA pull weight had a negligent discharge. Thankfully, no one was injured. In both cases it was a training/competency issue.

14

Ernest Langdon.

15

Re: The safety of the long, heavy, DA pull.

Three things need to exist before the finger goes onto the trigger in a ‘tactical’ situation: 1) target id’ed as threat; 2) sights/muzzle on target; 3) decision to fire. Absent any one of these three elements your finger needs to be outside the trigger guard, not on the trigger.

Even though I’ve taught that for years, I’ve seen enough officers during simulator or force-on-force training to know that officers often fudge a little.

It is in those situations that I can legitimately see someone considering the longer, heavier DA trigger to be an advantage.

Generally one of three conditions exists when someone has an ND: 1) startle; 2) clench when falling/stunbling; 3) flex-reflex/sympathetic contraction at maximum exertion.

It is not too simplistic to believe that a longer, heavier trigger is more likely to prevent an ND in such circumstances than a shorter, lighter trigger.

Notice, I said ‘less likely’ not ‘won’t.’

That most definitely does not mean it is okay for you to run around with yourfinger on the trigger if you have a DA/SA or DAO pistol.

16

For myself, I like a consistent trigger pull. DA or SA is fine, the DA/SA thing is not for me. Of course if it’s all I had to work with, I’d train for acceptable proficiency with it, but never enjoyed that set up. One or the other! :cool:

17

That’s not the point. So DA is better if the swinger is shooting back?

The example is that at fast moving target requires a fast, accurate shot without moving your sights. This is even more pronounced when the target is human and shoots back. 0,3 s faster is a lifetime in a tactical situation.

Years of cops wearing revolvers/DA/SA doesn’t give us any indication of what the best choice is NOW.

18

You are projecting your inabilities on others. Thats not how it works.
If you dry fire DA for 20 minutes a day for a week, then go time yourself, you wont be wondering ing about this anymore.

19

Yes, I am. But I can do an el pres in about 5-5,5 s with A zone hits, and DS from 10 yards in 1,3 s consistently. This is with a DA weapon (Shadow 2). These times don’t differ dramatically from shooting SA/striker (Glock 17). Of course target discrimination is not a part of these times…

On a confirmed hostile target, when you have to shoot accurately from the extended ready right now, DA IS slower than SA/striker. At least according to my abilities…

20

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

In the middle ages, this was a point of argument. Which is about as relevant to daily life, as this talk of times for shooting in DA verse SA or striker.

That is unless we are talking about competition.

Bottom line to surviving a real life gunfight is awareness, tactics, shot placement .If you violate any 1 of the 3, you reduce your chance of going home. If you violate 2 of the 3, if you face a determined bad guy you will probably not go home. If you violate all 3, then your survival comes down to pure luck.

If you have the latest hi capacity so called best caliber, zero recoil, with the best super bullets that mushroom to 95 caliber, you will still get killed if you allow a bad guy to walk up behind you with his RG 22 cal revolver and he shoots you in the back of the head.

I have gone with CZ CGW P07 with RMR as my go to carry pistol.
For the following reasons.

I can be lazy and for a fast trip out to the store, I will just put the pistol IWB without a holster. I would not do the same with a Glock.

The CZ out of the box is more accurate than my $5000 custom Hi Power and the CZ can mount a RMR.

The SA on the CZ is better than the action on my custom Hi Power.

The CZ is lighter than my Hi Power, so easier to carry.

So let’s say I mess up and because I am having a bad day I let a bad guy get close to me 10 meters down to let’s say 7 meters.

They wouldn’t get closer than that even on my worse day.

I observe a weapon in the persons hands and it is clear I am the target of their bad intentions. I pull my CZ and open fire. Let’s say for the sake of this thread, it takes me a few extra thousands of a second for my DA gun to go bang over what a SA/striker gun can do.

I have at that point in time seized the initiative from the bad guy and have force him to react to my actions, which is going to take him over a second best case for him to react. But wait, we have to add into the time the fact that they now are getting accurate center mass hits.

My training will have me fire into his body and then transition up to his head. Game over.

But if we take the same situation and he walks up to me and sticks a gun in my face and starts shooting. Then no pistol, no supper latest death ray hollowpoint can make up for my lack of awareness and tactics.

It will then be down to luck and the fact I will never give up, I will do my best to fight out of the tactical hole I dug for myself.

Now how many angels are on the head of that pin?

Does it really matter?