I’m looking at getting a semi auto CCW, and find the CZ P01 and P06 to be interesting as well as fitting my my hand very well. I also seem to like metal framed guns much more than the polymer offerings. I’ve checked out S&W’s M&P lineup and have shot Glocks and XD’s but don’t particularly like how they fit my hand or the overall shape and sizing of the polymer guns.
Does anyone else here have experience with CZ’s pistol offerings?
Any positive or negative information is appreciated.
Here are some handy articles and reviews on the P-01. It has gone through some incredibly rigorous official testing. I’m hearing a lot of kudos for the P-01 as a mid-size carry gun, though I have not yet owned one myself. I’ve owned many other CZ’s, and currently own three of their pistols and one rifle. They are more durable, more accurate, and more ergonomic, than any other handguns I have aside from my 1911’s.
Article describing the rigorous NATO testing that was done:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_1_50/ai_110470565
Review from the American Handgunner:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_167_28/ai_110457315
Review by George Hill:
http://madogre.com/Interviews/CZP01%20Article.pdf
I’ve owned 5 CZs over the years and have put a LOT of ammo through each of them. A CZ 75b, CZ 75bd, CZ 97b, CZ SP-01, and a CZ P-01.
Out of all of them, the only one I recommend to people is the standard CZ 75b 9mm. It has the best balance, overall handling, slide mass, and frame strength. The P-01 is light, compact, and feels nice in the hand. However, after putting about 18k rounds through it I can tell you that it isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. The slide mass of the P-01 is too light for the mechanism design and it really puts a beating on the frame internals with NATO or +P ammo. Once your recoil spring breaks in, you’ll really notice it as you will get the commonly experienced trigger slap from the excessive slide velocity with 9mm NATO or +P ammo. I broke one extractor, two trigger return springs, and one slide stop on the P-01 while I owned it. That is really unacceptable in a serious defensive pistol. Most competing pistols on the market such as Glock, Sig, H&K, and S&W will not break parts until they have reached the 30-50k round count using full power ammunition. If you go to CZ forums many of the fanboys will admit that their CZs have broken slide stops at under 20k rounds or have had trigger return spring problems, but they over look those issues and claim that the CZ is just as reliable as the competition. Most CZ owners also never take their pistols beyond 10k rounds, or if they are using it as a competition pistol they use under powered loads and not the full power defensive stuff.
I still own my CZ 75b and am happy with it. Back when CZ will still under Soviet control(when it was actually at its best), the company experimented with compact models, but didn’t put them into production. The reason why they didn’t was durability problems with the design. They listed the compact model as having a 20lb recoil spring to compensate for the reduced slide mass, but they likely were having premature slide stop breakage due to the more forceful return velocity.
BTW, the NATO testing that CZ claims their P-01 passed with flying colors cannot be verified…this is just coming from CZ public relations.
That has not been my experience. Guns may reach that high a round count without a breakage, but if you tested 10 guns from any manufacturer I wouldn’t expect all of them to hit 30k without a breakage. I’m assuming, based on your other comments, that you’re not allowing for recommended standard maintenance in terms of spring replacements, etc.
For example, just about every company recommends changing trigger springs at 10k. While they may not trumpet the fact, most also recommend changing their locking block/insert every 20k for high round count guns. I’ve seen Berettas, SIGs, and Glocks with broken locking blocks/inserts at less than 20k, in fact.
Coincidentally enough, I sat down this morning and compiled all the data I had on the 24 sample guns that were in my safe during my 5 years at SIG. Three guns had parts break (one broken its takedown lever and then the extractor broke less than 100 rounds later). Of the four broken parts, only one occurred after 20k rounds … and even then the gun didn’t make it to 30k. Only one of the guns (a P226R 9mm) passed 30k without a breakage.
Please don’t misunderstand, my feeling toward CZ is very similar to yours. Most of the people who are happy with the performance of those guns will never see 20k rounds. They definitely have “hard use” issues and require maintenance and parts replacement to keep them going.
My 2 cents are if you are looking at a CZ stay with the 9mm ones. I have had a few CZ’s and currently have a full size 75B 9mm and a compact 75B 40 cal. The 40cal is picky on ammo and you can really feel the difference in recoil between the two.
The PO-6 has the new style 40 cal magazines that are just full size mags with a rubber base that sticks out about 1/2 an inch below the frame. It kind of defeats the purpose of a compact in my opinion. I have two of the older flush fitting 40 compact mags and they are impossible to load round number 10 without a loader. I’ve never every fired my 40 compact with 10 +1 because the mags are so hard to seat.
If you are still inclined to the CZ and I love mine, I would look at the all steel 75B compact in 9mm or the alloy frame PCR. Those don’t have the light rail and carry much thinner than the P-01 or 06 in my opinion. I prefer the safety versions myself and don’t care for the decockers.
As mentioned above the M&P is nice too if you haven’t shot it. I prefer steel guns myself but I have a 9mm and 45 M&P and love those also. David
It’s good to see this kind of info on the CZ guns. You rarely find anyone who has put enough rounds through them to make those sorts of observations.
Mind you this isn’t going to be a duty pistol, And I have no qualms performing preventative maintenance at recomended intervals. So long as the gun is inherently reliable I should be fine.
As an automotive mechanic, I also understand that springs are wear items, they sag, lose thier tension and develop a compression set over usage, thus necessitating replacement. So I don’t see myself neglecting to replace worn out parts.
So given that the fire arm is properly maintained how reliable are the mechanisms, etc.
And are there any other differences between the 75 compact and the P01 other than the steel frame and light rail?
After doing some more research it seems as though the PCR seems like the best compromise between light wieght and bulk. Now can it be had with factory installed tritium sights?
Not meaning to quibble, just pointing out this would apply to all modern pistol designs I have owned. For instance, my experience has been that the two M&P’s, a Taurus 24/7, and a Sig 229 I have owned, have all required more repairs and have had more failures under both real usage and dry firing than any of my CZ’s have. That’s a small sample, as we often say, and not enough to prove any trend one way or the other. But just my experience.
But now to return to the point: I cannot vouch for the P-01’s durability. Like others, I can only point to the claims of the NATO testing, which as the other poster correctly says, cannot be easily verified. But of course, his individual experience with the pistol is not enough–by itself–to invalidate the claims of the pistol’s durability either. Just to be balanced and fair! 
I’ve read of a few more than two reports of slide stop breakages over the years. Call CZ-USA and ask for the master gunsmith (Mike Eagleshield). Ask him what is the expected life of the slide stop. A few years ago, I did this. Twice. The first time I asked, he said “1500 rounds, but I’ve seen them not last that long”. The second time I asked him at a later date, he said, “1200 rounds”. I asked for clarification, since I was a bit surprised. He said they usually last longer than that, but CZ considers that a maintenance part.
This, along with hearing that the competition 75 ships with FIVE slide stops in the box, left me disinterested in the CZ platform. The slide stop takes a beating in that pistol design and even more so in the larger calibers, according to some interesting comments from Bruce Gray.
There are several ergonomic issues that turn me off to them, but the slide stop issue, the poor spring quality issues in the pistol and in the mags (I’ve read reports that CZ has recently switched to Wolff springs to address this) and the porous castings (including objectionable voids sometimes, according to some gunsmiths I trust), made them fail my criteria before even trying to reconcile the ergonomic issues. At the time, I was toying with the idea of it as a defense pistol and just didn’t care for the quality and I consider it to be a Tier 2 platform. I just couldn’t trust it.
As for the legions of armies around the world that were reportedly using these, I don’t believe they were necessarily high volume pistol shooters, so I don’t consider their choice as thorougly vetted as even a US state police contract selection. A Taurus or Llama would probably fair about as well for these countries.
Just my .02 (after taxes).
Yes, “over the years”, I’ve read of multiple issues with all types of guns as well! Gosh, I can even remember seeing a couple of cracked frames on Glocks.
But as I said, LATELY over in the CZ forums, I only recall seeing a couple of threads (in the past 6 months or so) where there was any big discussion about a broken slide stop. I just went there now and searched, and there are simply not many current issues to be found. The point was, there’s hardly an epidemic. If it were, one would think it would be coming up more often on the most popular forum for CZ owners, many of whom own multiple pistols and are big-time competition shooters (like Angus Hobdell).
Suggesting, in the opinion of the smith, that one should replace a part every so many rounds for maintenance, is not the same as demonstrating conclusively that the part is defective or an accident waiting to happen. And it’s also not the same as proving that the part actually FAILS every 1500 rounds. I have owned a total of 7 CZ pistols, with far more than 1500 rounds through all but one of them, and never had a SINGLE broken slide stop. And I’ve only replaced 2 slide stops, voluntarily, after the pistols crossed the 5K rounds boundary. Small sample, yes, but guess what? I don’t even KNOW another CZ owner, personally or in the CZ forums, who’s had a slide stop break. I’m sure it happens at times, but it’s pretty darn rare in my experience, and apparently it’s rare in the experiences of the CZ owners on the forums, since almost no one seems to be talking about it.
Woot! just picked up a 75 D PCR today. Seems as though it was the only one in the local area as everyone was out of the compact 9mm CZ’s. I just can’t wait till I get out to the range with it, and also find some target ammo.
Its a very nice pistol with a really crappy trigger. The internal finish looks kind of rough and you can feel the recoil more than a polymer pistol. I see no reason to buy one over an M&P though.
George Hill recently posted he was selling his PO-1. I don’t consider him a “serious shooter”. That would be someone who is an effective trainer, has a serious professional background, or is at least a good competition shooter. He is a hobbyist with a blog.
CZ says their proof is that the PO-1 has a NATO stock number. But you can find washing machines with NATO stock numbers.
CZ-75 based full size platforms in 9mm have been performing well in various government agencies and military units around the world for over 30 years. The trigger is not a slicked up piece of snot like a 1911 but then the 1911 does not have DA capability either. The SA trigger pull is much nicer then any Beretta, HK, Glock or Sig I have ever shot, I actually prefer it to the 1911 too. It is of course a learning curve and at first it may not feel too good but it wears in really well. Offhand accuracy and speed of follow up shots once you get used to it is nothing short of WOW!!!. I would suggest staying away form a decocker version as the gun was meant for condition one carry. The DA pull is not very nice and has a big learning curve. Besides, decockers do not make a gun safe, they only make bean counters think it is safe which invites bad attitude towards gun handling and safety training.
Sure it has parts breakage, so do all the other guns, I have even seen fractured Glock slides. every serious shooter keeps spare parts for just such happenings. It depends on how much you shoot it. I personally have had 25K + through a CZ-75 without any issues at all. Just maintain it right and change out your recoils springs on schedule.
I would go with any of the basic CZ-75 platforms except the D models. The SP01 is good too. Stay away form the polymer versions, they are too new and their design needs to be proven before I would trust it,
The easiest solution is to get a trigger job.
George Hill is a certified NRA Pistol instructor, and has taught other self-defense courses. Also, about selling his P-01, if you’re talking about the episode I’m thinking of, he wasn’t selling because he doesn’t like it or thinks there is anything wrong with it. Quite the contrary. In the instance I know about, he was just using it as a trade on a new rifle he wanted at the gun shop where he works. He posted about this awhile back on his blog at Madogre:
“We had a couple Super Shadows and a Coyote SS in .270 WSM. Well, I pulled out my CZ P-01 and traded it in on the Coyote. It’s not that I didn’t like the P-01 anymore. Nooo… that’s not it. I could buy another one if I have to. And would… but I plan on buying it back.”
As a matter of fact, George still lists the P-01 as his second best pick for a handgun on his site, right behind the 1911. If he has suddenly turned sour on the P-01, he’s sure being inconsistent about it on his site.
In any case, I do not think trying to redefine what qualifies as a “serious shooter” is going to alter the fact that a lot of shooters out there admire and use the CZ platform pistols. The P-01 may or may not turn out to be a great pistol, long-term, I simply don’t know about it yet, though it looks promising. But the CZ 75 platform is well established, and there are PLENTY of shooters, at all levels of shooting, who have used and do use and endorse CZ’s. There was Jeff Cooper, of course, who thought the CZ-75 was the greatest double-action platform in existence. For competition shooters: Have you heard of Angus Hobdell? Matt Mink? Or Adam Tyc, the recent IPSC world champion? Or how about Dick Metcalf, the long-time technical editor of Shooting Times, who named the CZ 75 family as his pick for the “underrated autopistol of the 20th century”? (http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aastpistolofCc.htm).
Certified NRA Pistol instructor? Wow. Impressive. Takes at least a couple weekend classes to attain that. In any case George is not an impressive source because he makes many comments that make him appear to be mentally unstable. But thats another topic. BTW the blog posting you quoted is not the one I am referring to.
Anyway you have somehow assumed incorrectly that I am knocking the entire CZ-75 series. I am not saying anything negative about the CZ-75 series at all or the P01. I like it a lot but as I said has a crappy trigger. With all due respect to Col. Cooper he said that a long time ago and pistols have changed pretty dramatically since then. CZ’s recent attempts to modernize the CZ series by using Polymer frames are unimpressive.
Also I happen to know a few of the people you mention personally. Several of them are sponsored by CZ.
I recommend you read what people say more closely before you make assumptions next time.
I got the PCR out to the range and put 102 rounds through it today. It seems pretty damn accurate even with my noob skills. I am also impressed at the attention to detail CZ takes when assembling this gun. All kinds of screws, pins, sights etc are staked to provide added security. While the placement of the slide release and decocker are intuitive and don’t interfer with grasping the weapon at all. And the fit of the frame to my hand was absolutely wonderful, with no sharp edges or odd corners to mangle your mitts.
The trigger was little rough to begin with but it smoothed out a good bit with strategic application of some moly grease to the fire control group. The single action part of the stroke is clean crisp and smooth as butter, the double action will probably take some more breakin as I don’t have enough info on how to properly dissasemble and hone the action.
As far as I can tell I am very satisfied with this purchase so far, Time and a bunch more rounds down range will tell if that remains the case.
My main problem with your post is that you seem to imply that George changed his mind about the P-01, by the mere fact that he got rid of one one. That is NOT the case as far as I know, he is NOT down on the P-01 and in fact still highly recommends it, second only to 1911’s.
The other stuff, what you think of George’s mental stability, or whether you are impressed by his credentials, seems rather silly to me. One can quibble all day long about how you define a “serious shooter”; all I meant by that comment in my original post is that George’s background exceeds that of your average mall Ninja: he’s taught pistol courses, he has years of experience working on, shooting, and selling guns, therefore I suggested his detailed review of the P-01 might be of interest to the OP. End of story.
Some pistols have changed pretty dramatically, but most modern designs are plastic, and the fundamentals for the CZ-75 family design are still quite similar. The CZ-75 platform has had some improvements since the original came out over 30 years ago, but I see a high degree of continuity with the original and suspect that Colonel Cooper, if still alive, would still hold his high opinion of this platform. Your comments about their attempts at polymer pistols are not relevant; CZ’s polymer pistols were not being considered in any previous post in this thread.
As for “crappy” triggers, is that a scientific assessment? Because the fact is, I read many, many reviews of P-01 users who are quite satisfied with the trigger, NIB. But be that as it may, I rarely judge a production pistol by its trigger in its NIB state. If I did, I’d have ditched my two M&P’s, and my two current 1911’s, not to mention a CZ 85 Combat and an SP01 that I currently enjoy shooting. To me, like a 1911, you judge a CZ’s trigger by what it CAN be, when well tuned. And a well done CZ trigger, IMHO, is second only to a well done 1911 trigger.
If Angus Hobdell, Matt Mink, and Adam Tyc keep winning competitions as they have done in the past with CZ’s, then I think their record will speak for itself. This platform is a “serious shooters’” platform, HOWEVER you define that term.
While we’re making recommendations, I’d also suggest not posting facts out of context, making it appear that George is not longer recommending the P-01, just because he sold one, when the fact is that actually, he still highly recommends the P-01 on his site and in his frequent postings.