My agency went the other way - 9mm to .40, back in 2008. We have a VERY liberal personal weapons policy, however, though most “hobby” shooters (e.g. almost every agent I work with, who carry guns when they’re not inconvenient) either carry the issued gun, or bought the smallest possible option in .40, since “.40 must be better”
We now have tons of agents walking around with Kahr PM40s, G27s, and other small .40s, and, I’ve never seen a group of shooters with worse habits in my life. If I had a dime for every lost shot through massive flinch based on the recoil characteristics of this round in these pistols, I could retire.
Nothing wrong with .40 - I can run an equivalent .40 just as fast and accurately as most 9mms - AS LONG AS I STAY IN DUTY SIZED PISTOLS. Drop to a compact or subcompact, and my performance really drops off in .40… YMMV, of course, but I have made the decision to stick with 9mm for all my personal weapons - and don’t feel at all underequipped.
Try that on a timer especially at distance. Not being rude but you can’t argue with physics. With more recoil you will not be able to shoot as fast. The difference is less noticeable as gun size goes up but its still there. It is more noticeable at longer ranges where muzzle flip keeps your sights off target longer due to the smaller size of the target in relation to your sights.
Pat
I carry a G27 as a BUG and off duty. Nine out of ten times I shoot better with that then I do my S&W 642 with Federal Nyclad +P loads. Hell, at my old agency I was the only guy rocking a J-Frame. At my current one we are issued a Fullsize and a BUG; G22 and a G27.
At no pint do I feel underarmed with a 9mm, hell I own a ton of 'em along with .45s but the .40 to me meets all the right criteria for what I want. Good on capacity, performance, barrier penetration, and I don’t find it snappy at all and I’m 5’4 and 155lbs guy.
Pat - Yes, I’ve “done that” on a timer, at a variety of distances out to 25 yards. With the G22 and P226, my times and accuracy are just as good as with a G17 or P226 9mm. At close range, my times are indistinguishable with no reduction in accuracy. Especially at longer ranges, the slower recovery shot-to-shot times are buried in the need to aim - as opposed to standing up close and making the banging noise as fast as possible…
BUT, and this is the salient point that I guess you missed, I recognize that I have to work harder to achieve these goals with anything in .40 S&W - especially when I drop down a notch into the G23/P229 size pistols. So much so, that with my preferred “compact” platforms (specifically the G19 and P2000), it’s simply “not worth the squeeze” for me - hence the reason I carry 9mm personal weapons.
A few summers back I was shooting my Wilson CQB in 45 ACP and my Trojan 9mm 1911 on the IDPA classifer course a lot. I found that the 9mm times up close were not much faster but at the 20 yard line it was significantly faster. My times on the classifer with the 9mm were about 10 seconds faster overall. The Wilson was actually the far better gun with the trigger and sights but the 9mm was still easier to shoot. The 40 Glocks are even snappier of a comparison to the 9mm Glocks. Also to get truly fast i try not to have to take any extra time to aim at 20 yards. Just pull the trigger as soon as the sights come back down and leave the rest to muscle memory.The point I was trying to make is no matter how skilled you are you can’t defy physics and a harder recoiling gun will take longer to get back on target and hence slower shooting. Now granted the more skill you have the less of a difference you will notice but there will still be a difference.
Pat
I preach the right tool for the right job; hence my owning of different calibers and platforms. But I hate it that I am handicapped because of someone else’s lack of skill or want to improve through training. Yes, as an organization we are as strong as our weakest link and I also understand logistics but still.
Don’t restrict me due to someone else’s lack of skill and dedication to wanting not to improve. Sadly the majority of law enforcement are not “gun people” and having them qual let alone practice is like taking a child to the dentist. They will kick, scream, cry, and make up every excuse that they can come up with to get out of training and qualifications.
Ahhhh… I wish I could carry what I want. But that’s not going to happen anytime soon at work.
In the county where I work we are seeing a transition to .45 ACP from .40 S&W. Two agencies have already switched. One went with the G21SF and the other to the M&P. Two more are most likely going to the Gen4 G21. All but one previously carried the G22 Gen3.
Other than one, their testing was not that rigorous beyond testing T&E guns. Also three of them allowed the officers to vote. I think ego and misinformed assumptions ended up influencing a lot of the decisions.
When talking with officers who made the switch to .45, they cited things like “stopping power” and that the .45 is powerful enough so the decrease in capacity is not a big deal.
Educated evaluations of duty ammo and changes to what agencies carry can be few and far between in my neck of the woods.
It’s kind of ironic that my corrections agency (Arkansas) went to .40 Glocks two years ago after hanging on to .38 Special Smith and Wessons for many years beyond when most agencies got rid of the revolvers. .40 is now becoming less fashionable and we are behind the times again!
Arkansas had wheel guns up to two years ago? Damn, that is old school but then again Miami-Dade County Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation along with Florida Department of Corrections still issue S&W Model 64s so don’t feel behind the times.
A good friend of mine who was also previous roomate is issued a Glock21 in the Sheriffs dept. He lived with me during police academy training and told me his fellow officers were given the choice between 9mm, 40, and 45.
I knew some of his fellow officers, and most of the women chose the 9mm if they were recoil-sensitve, while the male cops were split between 40 and 45.
My agency issues G-21C’s as primary. Officers who can’t qualify with it can opt for a G-22. I carry my own G-21SF with an Accurate Iron grip reduction. I don’t care for ported duty guns and the overall grip circumference on mine is equal to a G-17. I shoot 96-100% on EVERY qual round, but the targets I see on the line show many with a skill level barely hovering above abysmal. I do think the scores would improve greatly if the G-17 was standard issue. They could nearly double the ammunition allotment per deputy and the recoil reduction wouldn’t hurt.
A solid hit with a 9mm will beat a .40 or .45 miss or marginal hit all day long.
We have a few 9mm vs 40SW threads already, and at least one gets down into the weeds.
For years I’ve said that if I ever get the chance to transition or standardize another user group, it would be to 9mm and a Glock 19 (alternately, a G17). I got my wish and am helping others do the same. As folks T&E the variables, which admittedly include budgetary concerns, 40 users are dropping like flies. With solid justification.
9mm and 45 folks can make the same argument if you “force” them into a 40. They’ll wish that they could carry the guns that they want, too (and there are almost certainly departments out there that allow it within reason, you simply have to find them).