Looking for Opinions on Both:
Criterion Barrels vs FN CHF ( taking the profile differences out). Which would be preferable? I have been told by gunsmiths and barrel makers CHF is only a cheap way to pump out barrels. ( The Criterion does have an advantage with the Wylde chamber)
Criterion Test:
https://criterionbarrels.com/media/criterion-barrels-vs-cold-hammer-forged-video/
Cold hammer forging (+CMV with chrome lining) is a long proven method for rifling durable and accurate barrels. It is not the cheap way.
I’m running a couple Criterion barrels; 16” Wylde 5.56 and a 16” .308.
The 5.56 barrel has been exceptionally accurate.
What are your goals?
CHF was indeed originally created to efficiently and economically produce barrels. It is not necessarily “cheap” as far as low quality goes however. My Noveske 12.5” will put ten rounds of my 77 grain match ammo into ~1.25” at 100 yards. I expect my 16” Centurion medium-profile to do the same based on what I’ve read about this particular barrel (both the Noveske and Centurion are FN-made).
In contrast, my 16” Criterion will put the same ten rounds into 0.6 MOA. Unless extreme accuracy is the concern, I’d say either will work for you. If that level of precision is what you’re after, I’d say skip both and get a Bartlein or Krieger from Compass Lake.
This is a case of “it depends.” You will have Cold hammer forged barrels that are produced out of steel that lasts longer than CMV, is hammered out on mandrels that get changed more frequently, and that go through straightness tolerance checks more stringent than other cold hammer forged barrels.
You will run into button rifling barrel companies that use precision lapping equipment, that use a more precise and expensive process of chrome-lining, and that independently verify their barrels to a standard for accuracy before they ship them out.
Every one of these steps increase cost.
This does not mean that you are getting a bad barrel when you go for something lower priced, just that there was less diligence in the picking and choosing.
Criterion or Colt for button rifled chrome. Hodge, Centurion Arms, Daniel Defense, and probably Noveske for Cold Hammer forged chrome lined.
What are your thoughts on the 308 barrel? Was looking at it for my maten build
Any smith or mfg who tells you that is at best severely misinformed and at worst intentionally being deceptive.
It certainly was faster when first developed, but not necessarily cheaper, especially when capital equipment costs are factored in.
Many detailed threads on this including gov test white papers, etc.
Cold hammer forging was a barrel making process developed during WWII to rapidly turn out barrels economically, once the machinery was amortized. It was the opinion that the process introduced stresses in the steel that would warp the bore as the barrel heated up and cause shot groups to open up. This opinion was so strongly held that Remington kept from becoming public knowledge that the barrels of the Model 700, which has enjoyed a reputation for superior precision going back several decades, for many years used a CHF manufactured barrel.
Today, CHF AR barrels demand a premium price based on their reputation for longer barrel life. There is some debate whether or not that reputation is well deserved or not. But as CHF is meant to rapidly produce barrels economically, I question whether or not they are worth the premium. With the current state of modern barrel making, getting a bad barrel from a reputable company is almost unheard of. There will be little practical difference between the Criterion and FN barrels for the uses the majority of ARs will be put to.
I put a chrome lined Criterion on an AR and shot two shots at 50 yards to get zeroed, then put 3 shots into 1/4" at 100 yds. They DO shoot.
I have never seen a test/report/experiment that shows CHF is more accurate than a comparable buttoned barrel.
More durable? Maybe. I’d rather spend the money on ammo.
I think it would help if you spec’d out accuracy requirements and what you plan to do with the rifle.
Hike, bench shoot, 50yd in machinegun barrel, 3 gun?
If you’re going to feed it junk, the Criterion will eat and print well some of the worst 55gr reman I’ve ever seen. They are an excellent value.
FN CHF’s often shoot very well if built properly (2 big problems is people overestimate their building and shooting prowess). Most of mine will print duty ammo 1.25 MOA or better and match is often MOA or better. You’re not going to get benchrest-grade groups but they will take you to the limit of 5.56/.223 in an AR and beyond.
To say that CHF barrels can’t shoot is a lie. Sako/Tikka, HK and FN have long since proven otherwise.
Someone else said it on the boards earlier…there probably aren’t that many “bad” barrels out there. Bad builds, bad shooters, bad ammo, bad optics don’t get their fair share of the blame.
Thanks for the Input. Rainer Arms had a sale on their house branded FN CHF Barrels for $150.
I used to think CHF was worth it but after talking to barrel makers as said before, the only thing you gain is longevity and lose accuracy potential. Criterion CL barrels looked really accurate and more consistent based off their YouTube video: Criterion vs CHF. Tho $140 difference is quite a bit for .4 moa probably.
That is not true. If you lose accuracy potential then why on earth would FN use their hammer forged barrels in the precision bolt action SPR that is in use with the FBI HRT? As I said before in previous threads CHF barrel manufactures CAN pick and choose how much accuracy potential they want in a CHF blank to have based things like mandrel replacement intervals and how much QC they want to pour into the barrel.
Not to mention Daniel Defense who recently released their precision bolt action using their CHF barrels.
Are the $150 FN barrels listed as match grade? If they aren’t, then they probably are not.
The Rainier FN “mountain” barrels do fine; I’ve had 2. Mine shoot some ammo extremely well and pretty much hold everything in 1.5 MOA.
Just find something with the chamber/barrel length/profile/gas system you like and go shoot.
Everything I have read indicates the barrels should be practically identical in accuracy with similar QC in place. The hammer forging equipment is more costly than traditional barrel making gear, but can be amortized via higher production volume which works for a large manufacturer while most custom shops won’t have the volume to absorb the equipment cost.
Other than that, I have heard the chf is more resistant to bursting from obstructions. Not sure how valid that is, but have wondered if that could be the magic sauce in the HK 416 versus Colt M4 video instead of the gas system.
Also, at least in theory, a chf barrel should cost less than a traditional barrel due to the higher production volume. Similar to a forged versus stamped receiver cost difference.
QC has nothing to do with the barrel accuracy - it only confirms that some part falls within a required specification.
Previously (during WWI/WWII years), QC basically determined if barrel falls within a tighter specs it was sent to a sniper line for evaluation. If test fire confirmed its capabilities it was made into a sniper variant of the rifle. If not, back to the generic line.
No magic source in HK416 - it has to do with the overall system design and not particularly one component.
Most accuracy has to do with the processes and standards. Can CHF barrels be more accurate than other types? Absolutely! I’ve never understood why people claimed one vs the other. If smaller precision oriented companies had an access to experiment more with CHF process I’m 100% sure that they would have perfected it after a few iterations to achieve the same accuracy their existing methods.
However, when we’re purely discussing an off the shelf barrel (chf or otherwise) vs a precision oriented product (Criterion/Noveske/Lilja/else) latter will always be better in terms of accuracy and longevity given the same materials. On average out of 100 barrels second type will always outperform the first kind.
Buying a generic mass produced FN/Palmetto/AR Stoner(midway)/Bear Creek special on sale and thinking that it will be just as accurate or durable as Criterion or Noveske which costs more 2x-3x more is simply false. Can you be lucky and get a good one? Yes. Can you get a bad Noveske - yes, I’ve heard people complaining about them as well getting 1.5-2 MOA accuracy.
Although I haven’t done the testing, I’m confident that on average with copper jacketed ammo, a Criterion(or Noveske and such) chrome-lined barrel will last at least as long as a generic CHF FN chrome-lined and be more accurate over its lifespan. If you start comparing different steels and linings/coatings, that would not be an accurate comparison. Criterion/Noveske/other quality CL barrel will last longer simply because CL will be more even and chip less vs a budget barrel.
Who makes Noveske chf barrels?
lol…FN