As course host I received a free slot in this class, so it is only appropriate that I recuse myself from posting my own public review as this could be considered a conflict of interest. However, I will facilitate the review for the other shooters in the class by starting the thread, posting thoughts from students who are not active forum members, hosting pictures, etc. I’ll also be happy to answer clarifying questions about the coursework and range facilities.
I would like to extend my thanks and appreciation to my friend Jack Leuba.
Isn’t getting a “free” slot pretty standard in the industry for the guy who puts the class together and promotes it? That time and effort ain’t free.
Besides, as a Vickers-endorsed instructor, your view of how professionally Jack conducted the class would be insightful for those of us considering partaking of his training.
I really enjoyed this class. This is the second time I’ve had the pleasure of learning from Jack and honestly after years of reading his interactions, guidance and real world wisdom. There were quite a few new people and I think they were extremely fortunate in their first choice. I’ve trained with a variety of instructors: Rogers, Vickers, Lamb, Goodale, Awerbuck and several others.
This was an excellent first offering from Jack as lead instructor and I hope he has a long future in firearms training ahead of him and as such I think he was working out some of the bugs. There were a few but having been a teacher/instructor, lessons plans get refined as you teach more. I would definitely take another class from Jack as they will only get better.
The main lesson I took away was in carbine selection. We got to do some distance shooting and I switched from a 14.5 M4 type that I used in most of the class to a 16" Recce and found I simply don’t gain very much on that end. I’m abandoning the whole idea of a recce or precision/match gun. It’s just not my priority and I was very comfortable at distance with my M4 and an Aimpoint.
Jack is one of the most humble and approachable instructors I’ve ever had. His techniques are functional, uncomplicated and ultimately dispenses with a lot of flourish. Every once in a while I think you need to go back and relearn the basics as you sometimes forget things, deprioritize their importance or ultimately make things more complicated than they really need to be.
I’ll be happy to discuss my thoughts offline, but I’m firm on my current stance. It’s too easy to slip into whoredom in this game and I’ll have none of it.
I shared most of my thoughts with Jack via email, but I will say a few things.
This was my first class (aside from 10 hours of prior training with Low Speed High Drag, LLC), and I was a bit nervous, not knowing what to expect, or if my skillset would be up to snuff for the class, or being the dreaded “That Guy”.
Fortunately Jack’s methods of teaching are easy to understand. He makes it very clear as to why to want to do something a certain way.
Personally, I think I gained the most from the pistol training portion of the class. At the end of TD2, we were doing primary to secondary transitions, and I was getting hits at 50 yds on steel with my G19. I definitely was not able to do that before the class.
The carbine portion of the class was also very thorough. Jack stresses accuracy quite heavily (which is a good thing obviously), and we did lots of drills to build accuracy and speed. I particularly enjoyed shooting steel and 100 yds using cover, and transitioning from strong side to weak side. Each drill we did had a clear sense of purpose. There was no “well why are we doing this?”
Little side note: I was in a motorcycle accident a year ago, and because of said accident, I cannot kneel on my left knee (it was broken into 15+ pieces), so some position shooting isn’t a go for me (like kneeling). Jack made sure to accomodate me, letting me shoot the drill in question in whatever position I was able to. I appreciated not be told some macho “work through the pain” nonsense, or something of the sort.
Overall, the class was a really good experience. I can’t compare it to other classes, but I have a feeling, after reading lots of AARs here, that F2S Consulting is certainly in the upper tier of training available.
Gunshot John…could you please elaborate on this statement you made below…
“The main lesson I took away was in carbine selection. We got to do some distance shooting and I switched from a 14.5 M4 type that I used in most of the class to a 16” Recce and found I simply don’t gain very much on that end. I’m abandoning the whole idea of a recce or precision/match gun. It’s just not my priority and I was very comfortable at distance with my M4 and an Aimpoint."
1.) Does F2S feel this way, does he make it a point to essentially discount LP AR’s.
2.) What distances, what size targets, what was the difficulty level associated with acquiring the targets that were used in this part of the class(low light, mostly concealed, etc.)
3.) Any discussion on why a SWAT sniper, or military sniper/SOF might need a little more than the last part I put in bold of your text.
4.) What were the specs on the “recce” rifle that you ran or that was being used in the class that was obsolete in comparison to a 14.5" CL with a 1x dot sight.
First, I want to publicly thank Jay and the shooters.
It was a pleasure to have each and every one of them in the class.
There was a broad range of experience and varying backgrounds represented in the class, which was exactly what I wanted.
The shooters demonstrated exceptional determination, with temperatures in the low 30s for most of the class, those trigger fingers got pretty numb.
I highly respect Jay’s stance on AARs as a comp’ed shooter. He’s in a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” position. Should he give a glowing review it could be interpreted as him taking the free slot for a cake piece, and if he gave a less than favorable review it could be seen as him trying to garner more students for himself. I think that his decision is the best possible way to maintain everyone’s credibility and professionalism.
This was my inaugural open enrollment class, and as such there were a few things that I will be changing in the future. There were some topics I did not cover and some that I was only able to lightly cover. This was a combination carbine and pistol class, and in the future this format will only be available in a 3-day class, with rifle or pistol classes in the traditional 2-day length. The combination of short winter days, skills testing, night shooting, and a newly reformatted schedule caused me to be keenly aware that to bring a class to the performance level that I want to attach my name to requires at least another day on the range.
Re: Trident’s questions-
1- No, I really did no talking about base platforms.
2- Some students shot from concealment, most from a war-belt type setup. Longest targets were at 100 yards from the standing, and from supported positions, and shooting continued on day 2 until light conditions precluded target detection. For what it’s worth, Gutshot John has participated in long-range courses so his opinons on what works for him are based off of actual experience and not internet combat. I am sure that he will share his personal opinon on the subject and won’t pretend to speak for him.
3- I did not discuss those topics in class. What I do believe is this: an Aimpoint is an incredibly effective optic and can be used to good effect on human threats out to 200 meters. I personally prefer a low powered variable, but that preference is based on more than sub-100 meter employment.
4- That’s all GSJ.
FWIW- future classes will have more time for my input and experience on weapon selection and setup with the opportunity for students to try out some basic configurations before begining training to give them a better fit and faster skillset improvement.
Thank you to everyone that has shared their thoughts and to those that will. I am really looking forward to the pictures.
Thanks for the reply brother, your opinion and knowledge is certainly one of the ones I value most on M4C. While I saw nothing wrong with Gunshot John’s reply above, I did think that perhaps that type of statement could use a bit more explanation. I will say that I feel just the opposite on this issue in question.
It’s all my subjective takeaway, it wasn’t anything that Jack said or didn’t say, it just became clear for my purposes and that was part of the reason I wanted to shake it out a bit more on TD2. I don’t claim that my choice is best or that it’s valid for everyone. Like I said, it’s just not what I want to do with 5.56 M4s. YMMV and your opinion is about your needs, my opinion is about mine.
100 yards with an aimpoint is pretty much child’s play, I’m confident I can make headshots at that distance pretty easily from prone. Using an aimpoint I’ve shot well beyond that (2-400) with relative ease but I don’t anticipate shooting beyond 200 with any regularity with an M4 (<200=99% of my need) so I can’t justify the extra weight and other shortcomings of a recce setup.
Essentially I used to believe in a single do-all, rifle. I’ve found again and again that I have to make too many compromises in that space to be a functional reality. Some conversation with Jack reaffirmed that opinion. IMO if most of the shooting you’re going to be doing is well within 200 yards with the need to make an occasional shot beyond that distance, than an Aimpoint, lightweight gun, makes a better optic choice. If you’re going to be doing significantly more shooting beyond 200 yards with the occasional need to shoot at CQB distances, or you have fairly rigorous precision requirements (SWAT/Sniper), than a heavier recce setup with variable optic might be a better way to go.
The weapon in question was an LMT (single stage) lower, VLTOR VIS upper with Noveske N4 barrel, I was using a Viper PST. The main consideration involved was the issue of weight and eye placement. If I’m going to have to carry the extra weight, have to contend unforgiving eye relief/placement behind a magnified optic then I’m stepping up in caliber (i.e. 7.62) to a more dedicated precision weapon. Again ymmv, but for myself, I want the lightest, quickest setup that still gets the job done.
I have a few more to filter through but this is the bulk of it. Piss poor lighting didn’t help with taking any sort of action shots but it is what it is.
It’s always interesting to see what cold and humid will do to guns and gear - our weather didn’t disappoint. Eyepro and optics get fogged up, guns run sluggish, and weaponlight beams diffuse in the atmosphere. Fingers get numb and gear that allows for maximum usability during evolutions usually is not optimal for pure performance.
A couple of off-brand ARs went down, as well as an 18" M1A early on. Guns required lots of lube to keep running. Cold mud contributed to the good times as it worked its way into magazines. Proper cold weather gear was essential… not that it was super-cold, but TD1 we spent the better part of 12 hours outside in temps that ranged from the mid 30s to the mid 20s.
This was my first exposure of shooting a lot of rounds (500+) in adverse conditions (cold and wet), and I was surprised at how much lube was necessary by the end of TD1. I don’t have an off brand gun (BCM upper, DD lower), but during the last drill, my BCG was starting to get really sluggish, eventually short stroking.
I’m glad I experienced weather-related weapon issues though, as up to this point, the AR I used hasn’t had any issues at all.
Actually now that Jay mentions it, I have to agree that cold/humid was one of my bigger takeaways as well. Lots of guns seemed to be going down or having trouble.
My guns ran great except during the chemlight shoot when I was having some pretty consistent malfunctions with one particular magazine that I’ve never had trouble with before. I’m going to run the mag hard this weekend to see if that was the issue.
First off, thanks to Jack (Failure to Stop) for the instruction and Jay (Low Speed- High Drag) for the hosting the class. It was an awesome experience and I learned a lot. Jack is an incredible source of knowledge and has an uncanny analytical and diagnostic mind for shooting. His presentation on what to do after shooting and before holstering was something incredible. I would recommend F2SConsulting to anyone interested in learning to shoot or better their shooting skills. Thanks to my fellow classmates, lets do it again!
I wanna thank Jack for his time, standing out in the cold, and being one of the most enthusiastic instructors I have had. So enthusiastic that him and a student were blasting at some targets in the dark and he took a dive, in the mud/much/snow to shoot from various roll over positions. My take aways from the class are enough to make me wanna get to the range ASAP, more so than after any other class.
Having had a decent amount of training in the past I wasn’t too sure on what to expect. What I got out of both carbine and pistol was better ways, tweaks really, to how I was already doing things to improve speed/accuracy. Emphasis was placed on accuracy but there were a few different things used to push the limits of speed and accuracy and then bring it back and tie it together in a closing drill, per say, for that particular relay. The biggest thing I got out of the class was a few tweaks to my carbine stance that I think will allow me to be a great deal faster (will know when I time some stuff). I have also had a lingering issue with a Glock trigger that was finger placement related. I can shoot M&P’s just fine with the pad but on a Glock I need more finger, something I have been agonizing over for a while.
One point I would also like to make is how fast some of the other students who had far less training were able to get up to speed. Jack was able to get shooting quite well very efficiently. I really liked the manner in which he presented a few of pistol topics (grip, stance, malfunction clearance) too. The techniques were often what I have seen before but they were presented very well.
I will definitely be seeking more training with Jack. I had a great time, improved upon a fair amount of my technique and am pretty convinced that I can maybe go a little further than I had previously thought.
At the last Defoor adv carbine class at Blackwater; I shot next to a locked on Marine infantry officer fresh from Afghanistan who is F2S trained and also a man I’m proud to call my friend.
Said Marine was shooting a Noveske with a TA11 and fairly decent brass ammo, I was shooting my 5.45 AR with Sov mil surp ammo from the 80’s and an Aimpoint H1.
At the 100, 200, and 300 yard lines, we pretty much tied for groups. Neck and neck. But…we tied for speed at 50 and in. Not to mention similar group sizes.
I agree with GJ. I’m not too worried about scopes on a man sized target 300 and in. I’m not a bench rest nor accuracy fiend. Obviously if you are chasing small groups and hell bent on semi auto accuracy findings, red dots are not for you.
Number one for me was importance of trigger control when dealing with longer range (25+ yards) pistol work. While I could get away with rushing my press at short range, the sloppiness was immediately apparent as distance increased.
Secondly, this course made it really clear that a solid fundamental skill set is key for proficient marksmanship. There really weren’t any fancy, whiz-bang, smoke and mirrors techniques that we were shown. Just perfect execution of the fundamental techniques.
Finally, I thought I knew how important properly lubing an AR was to provide reliable function, but the cold, wet days we dealt with showed me (and other students) that what is adequate lube on dry summer day doesn’t cut it when it is 30 degrees and snowing. So basically, know your weapon inside and out.
This is the second time I have had the pleasure of training with Jack, at least this time I didn’t have to sing.
Jack is a BTDT guy who can also teach, win. He has a very positive way of dealing with his students, very upbeat. “Kill good!” is a common motivational phrase.
Jack is very accessible and as ego free as I’ve seen.
There were some minor issues with pacing and sequencing that we talked about as a class with Jack that I don’t believe will be an issue in the future. Most of these issues stemmed from his efforts to try and satisfy requests from or the special needs of the class.
A couple of things I took away from the class:
I had a bit of a lightbulb moment when it came to my carbine grip, it finally felt right. I don’t know how to explain it.
His description of the ‘why’ behind the post engagement sequence (scan and assess, etc) was excellent and not diluted with flashy wordspeak. Concise, to the point and most importantly, irrefutable. That 10 min was worth the price of admission.
In all, training with F2S is time and money well spent, I will again.