I think you’re confused as to who the good guys in that movie are.
I miss read your post. I thought you were referring to the theifs. The police were getting effective hits with reserved semi auto fire
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While I agree there is more NYPD could do in the marksmanship arena, they have 33,000 or so officers to maintain. Just like not everyone in the infantry qualifies Expert, not every officer is going to clean the quals. Add the stress of a real gunfight, the hit ratio will go down further.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the hit percentage for LE of the North Hollywood shootout? It might be interesting for comparison purposes.
If you consider the bullet to kill ratio in recent wars 84 to 1 looks good!
Agreed, but a war zone vs. a city street is the old proverbial apple to orange comparison.
I was wondering the same thing. Where do you start? It would be pretty hard to figure out since several scored hits were ineffective.
Both robbers were killed, eleven police officers and seven civilians were injured, and numerous vehicles and other property were damaged or destroyed by the approximately 1,750 rounds of ammunition fired by the robbers and police. The two men had fired approximately 1,100 rounds, while approximately 650 rounds were fired by police.
If you took number of those dead or wounded and assigned one hit each (which you know is very low) 2+11+7=20
20 x 100 / 1750 = 1.14% meaning better than the OP incident. Take it for what it is worth.
Like you said, ineffectual hits due to the armor. I have to believe that regardless of training, shooting back at armoured full auto suppressive fire is another world than a shooting with your average criminal with a pistol. Idiots with rifles do warrant a different response.
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Shoot till the threat is stopped. Who cares if you aim! Sooner or later one of the rounds will hit!
According to the linked article; there were two encounters with the armed robbery suspect.
First, four uniformed patrol Officers engage suspect and fire 52 rounds.
52/4= Average of 13 shots per Officer fired with no rounds connecting.
Second, two uniformed Officers fire 32 rounds and connect with 1 peripheral hit to an extremity (leg). No indication if the hit was direct or a ricochet.
That is very poor marksmanship and the Command staff qouted in the article would be singing a different song if those errant rounds connected with a local resident or innocent bystander in the area.
Bottom-line, we are all responsible for every round fired, irregardless if you have a badge or not. Can’t make the shot, no clear background, unsure of distance or angle to target, then don’t shoot.
Those NYPD Officers need some marksmanship training.
Related articles:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/nyregion/08nypd.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/weekinreview/09baker.html?pagewanted=all
12# trigger, little to no training, I am not surprised.
From what I understand speaking with several NYPD officers, there is virtually no firearm training done post academy. Few of them want to spend their own money for training and ammo and assume they will never be in a gun fight since NYC has tough gun laws. I shit you not dude’s two NYPD officers told me they don’t ever expect to me in a gun fight because of NYC’s laws. My jaw almost dropped.
Do they have NY1 or NY2 triggers?
They’re responsible for every round they fire. Who said otherwise?
Was it all pistol rounds fired? How many officers fired?
TJ Hooker!
A 104 yard 1 handed pistol shot holding the reins of two horses; resulting in a one shot stop is not a result of training. That’s luck.
I think they are running ny2s. It was determined the ny1 still wasn’t stiff enough. At least that’s what Smyrna says. They asked for the ny2 because the ny1 still wasn’t hard enough to pull.
They could add a “+” connector to the ny2. You’d just about need a friend to help fire it then.
I admit to never being in a running gun battle. But I also know that the live or die stress drops quite a bit of skill right off the table. As I recall, it’s around 40% or so.
So yes, they suck at shooting.
I would think you’d reach a point that you know you aren’t hitting anything, and lay off the trigger some.
Before that many rounds are gone.
And the “they got 33,000 people to train, so you can’t expect good training”.
What???
So, ****k it, just give them a badge, some cuffs, a gun, and a pile of ammo. They can wing it.
Seems they’re real lucky they didn’t kill anybody else. I wonder how it would fly if they told some dead child’s parents that “sorry, we can’t properly train the officers, since we have so many”.
I realize people in gunfights miss, more than many realize. But this certainly seems way past that. And, it seems to happen with this dept regularly.
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I thought that one of the NY triggers was developed for NYPD and the other for the staties.
State qualification twice a year doesn’t train you to win a gunfight. (Usually under 50 rnds, no movement, use of cover, etc)
Unless an Officer is a “gun guy” (Or SWAT, which is usually gun-guys) and shoots on his own this qualification is typically the only trigger time they get. (Plus some electronic simulations once in a while if it’s a bigger dept)
Add to that a 12lb trigger and well…most of them aren’t going to shoot well and either be hesitant to engage or shoot way too soon and too much.
Interesting how police admin took away the DA/SA auto’s with there longer, heavier DA first shot (and don’t have to pull trigger to field strip) and what did they do? Put 8 and 12 lb triggers in Glocks so every trigger pull sucks.
I’ve fired the 12 lb Glock trigger and it’s terrible. It actually made my finger pad hurt in a couple magazines. A DAO Beretta M92 has a far better trigger…
I would like to read NYPD’s SOPs for fire superiority and suppressive fire . . . I kid, I kid. :jester:
Back a few years ago, I purchased a LEO Trade-in G21 that had the 8 pound pull and it wasn’t bad.
Did a research this am on what pull NYPD has and if this article is correct it is 12 pounds.
Cut and pasted:
The NYPD definitely has a training problem, but the problem runs much more deeply. In fact, this is an abject lesson in the damage socialism causes, specifically, when socialist do-gooders try to help people, they virtually always cause enormous harm.
http://bearingarms.com/nypd-a-dangerous-philosophy/
Isn’t that pretty much how we got the 223 round? [emoji3]
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Well, according to the glock armorer instructors at Smyrna, the ny1 came from a request of NYPD that the glock trigger be harder to pull. I believe it was a requirement by NYPD that the dept was not going to buy and issue glocks without a harder trigger pull.
The ny1 spring was born.
They hen came back and said this still wasn’t hard enough, and further explained that they wanted a trigger that approximated the pull of a double action revolver, being used double action. This, they felt was what the required pull was for safety.
The ny2 was born.
Still comes down to trying to fix a software issue with hardware. Doesn’t work, and these events keep coming up and proving it.
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The NY1 wasn’t a hard enough pull so they go to a NY2, perhaps a NY3 will fix the issue say about 50lbs.