Let me know I will go with you.
Ive been searching the i-net for a while and this site but havent found any answers to my question which is, does ANYBODY know a M16/M4 Armorers Course available to civs ?? I’m what you would call a tinkerer and like to know my tools inside and out and how to fix/trouble shoot/replace parts, but every course ive found is only LE/Gov’t/Military only, any info appreciated
Contact Greg Sullivan (SULLY) at Defensive Edge
I believe that the Bushmaster Armorer Course is an open one. IIRC the rationale behind restricting who can attend had to do with liabilty. They don’t want some Fudd tinkereing with his weapon, he gets injured or causes an injury and they then get sued.
that’s okay, some of us fall under the “mall ninja” category, so they have no reason to worry.
I second that. He, too, avoided barrel replacement though I’ve done it with the proper tools years ago.
When I did the course last year, DC did demonstrate (with a loose barrel) removing and re-installing the barrel but it was quite difficult in doing so without a bench vise. He picked two biggest guys in the class to hold it down. He explained it IS very difficult to remove to the point where his entire body was virtually off the floor. So for those expecting to remove and re-install a barrel in an armorer course, don’t be disappointed if this is not done for this reason.
thanks for the info guys, ill look into them
The Colt AC is a basic, entry-level, Colt-centric, course for Colt customers. It’s geared toward those who will maintain factory produced guns in a LE setting. The overwhelming majority of LE maintainers take care of a relatively few guns that remain in service a long time. As usual, they’re usually used little, but beat around much in that time. Maintenance tasks are focused there. When buying a factory built Colt rifle/carbine for LE service, there’s little to no need to ever remove the barrel. It isn’t rocket science of course, but it isn’t legos, either.
To that end, the AC accomplishes what it sets out to do and meets the needs of the target audience.
More important than rebarreling is what’s also missing from the Colt AC: better instruction in diagnostics and PM. The course hasn’t evolved from the core basic parts assembly and interaction as much as it should. Some instructors do more than others. Some of this is attributable to it being Colt-centric. There isn’t as compelling a need to delve into all the minutiae as with others, as there will be comparatively fewer issues than with good-as.
I’ve always felt that the current curriculum could be compressed down to 2 days for the information that is taught. If the AC was broken out into “Semi-Auto LE Carbine”, and then select-fire variants, it could be an 8 hour day each.
The equipment… Even the instructors are critical of the factory failure to maintain the tool sets, keeping guns that disassemble themselves, the low tech text-based manuals, and the other stuff folks have complained about.
Students share some responsibility here too.
Many do no homework in advance before enrolling in a class, establish no context or perspective for the class, and not expectedly, leave disappointed with their expectations unfulfilled. Requesting advanced copies of curriculum to review, or talking to previous course coordinators, to review is a foreign concept to most. Some will make the effort to come to the internet to get their info, which will range from excellent to worthless.
Also, in every class, students are handed critique forms with which to provide feedback to course managers. Having read through a number of them, few do anything but check “Good” or “Excellent.” Getting meaningul contemplative feedback is pretty rare. How many have ever called the head of a training division or VP to discuss their feedback? If folks went to the effort to tell the factory what they tell the internet in the AARs they post, we might see better courses.
Further, let’s be realistic about ourselves and fellow students. The AC is a basic class geared to the lowest-common-denominator LE maintainer of Colt product. The classes won’t be populated with a majority of HSLD, or even above average folks, they’ll be mostly plain joe part-changers. The bar is low, and the class is designed to be passed. Telling many of them “don’t do that, don’t mess with that, you don’t need to do that” might be the best advice they can receive. If using the house brand, it’s often true, too.
All this isn’t to condemn or defend the AC, but it is what it is. Shop smart for your training, and as always, caveat emptor. Folks like Dean Caputo, Sully, and others have developed their own programs to meet the needs of others. Take every course you can.
Well said, Skintop911.
IMO, the scope of the Colt AC is to cover 90% of the info that 90% of the users are going to see 90% of the time.
The problem I experienced was that there was a lot of time spent covering things such as differences between specific Colt models that could have been spent covering other things. If I want to know what model uses what pins, either I’ll look at one, or I’ll pull the manual on it.
From the AARs that I’ve read, Dean’s class is briefer and he teaches what he thinks guys REALLY need to know. He does accept non-LE/Mil students if the hosting agency allows.
When I took the AC from Ken, he was considering an advanced class that addressed barrels, and lots and lots of atypical stoppages.
As to typical stoppages, the typical causes and remedies were covered:
-Faulty ammo
-Faulty mags
-Incorrect extractor springs and inserts
-loose carrier keys (not a problem for makers that follow the TDP - hint, hint)
It is true that these are the usual causes of the typical stoppages.
As to barrel removal/install, I would have liked the AC to cover this, but it was beyond the scope of the class.
However, there are many resources outside of the class available to all that address this.
And, IIRC, if you buy a barrel from SAW, Ken will install it at no cost (it’s been about 4 yrs now, so this may have changed).
Sff,
I agree with alot of what you said. I had some of the same critiques about knowing all the different models and pin sizes. Since you should be using a manual of some type anyways when doing repairs (at least in the .MIL world) taking an extra minute to look at models and pin sizes, etc…is no big deal.
Barrel instal and removal is important as is a more in-depth diagnosis and troubleshooting portion of the class.
Does anyone know which agencies are open to civilian attendees? I’d prefer to take it with Elmore, and I’m not worried about getting his permission as we have mutual friends who can speak to my character. But I need to talk my way in with the host.
I just completed the USTC (Blackwater) AR15/M16 armorers course. It is open to LE, mil, and civilians. It was a good course but it pretty much had the same short comings as the Colt course. I was disappointed in the barrel replacement section.
Matt
As far as I know if Ken approves you, you are GTG. Is that what you wanted to know?
The US Training Center one is quite good. Charlie and Eric at USTC are excellent instructors. An Armorers course isn’t a gunsmithing course. Many LE dept armorers don’t even change barrels, many just buy barreled uppers. A few local depts here in NoVA have had me work on their rifles. I think mostly because even though they have armorers most don’t know what they’re doing.
The US Training Center AR15/M16 Armorers course is far better than the Bushmaster Armorers course. I think many of these courses don’t teach barrel replacement because of liabilities etc and because of the many different types of rails, barrel nuts etc. This is one of those things that would probably require another 1/2 to a full day in class to cover all the methods and barrel nut types etc.
Look how many types of barrel wrenches I have…in that drawer: DPMS, Smith Enterprise, Daniel Defense AR15 Lite Rail / 762 Lite Rail, PRI for 5.56 and 7.62, VLTOR, Colt 6940, FF-Bloop Tube, YHM, AR10, KAC SR25, USGI pre-A1 and A1/A2, Troy TRX.
Robb I think you and I would get along extremely well as neighbors.
Another board member here, Reed503, and I took the Colt AR15/M16 Armorer’s course this past November at the Kansas Law Enforcement Training Center in Hutchinson, Ks.
Really nothing has changed information wise regarding the course we took compared to what was posted a year ago in this thread. Like the others barrel work was only very briefly touched on the last day. It was more of an afterthought than a teaching portion of the class.
The guns were a mixture. M16A2’s, M4’s, 9mm smg’s. I managed to keep the same M4 for each day of the class. Most all of them were well worn to the point pins would fall out. In fact the gun I had appeared to have never been fired. Despite that it was not what I’d really consider serviceable due to the way it had been taken apart over time. Also probably just the number of times.
Someone posted prior about a lot of attendees are lower common denominator parts changers, or something like that, and he’s spot on. The rough condition of the poor carbine I had showed that numerous people prior to me had literally beaten the gun to death installing and removing pins. It was clear that more than once someone hadn’t even attempted to center a punch correctly before they started hammering. Hell the main pin hole on the A2 sight was broken out.
Which reminds me. The A2 assembly was covered well beyond significantly.
I feel like I was at a distinct advantage over most of the other class members. The reason I feel that way was primarily because of this website and what I’ll refer to as “the old TOS” from years back before they went AWOL on common sense. The technical information that’s been provided here was invaluable to providing a foundation for me on the schooling at KLETC. I was fortunate to have years of building, headspacing, and barreling AR’s under my belt as well.
As is evident in previous postings here they do still compare Colt’s quality and parts to other makers and vendors. The instructor related one story of repairing a dept. gun that was brought to class by removing a part from Bushmaster and replacing a Colt part. Unfortunately I don’t recall the part in question. But the story rings back after seeing the similar comments here.
They did cover headspacing in the class but limited it primarily to use of the FIELD gauge. They touched on a barrel straightness gauge. Ironic since the gun he randomly picked up in class failed the test when he dropped the rod down it.
Yes there was a bit of missing tools to pick from but it’s easy to share with your neighbor at your table. Speaking of tools. If you go to this class expecting to see the plethora of specific task related tools that we’re used to seeing written about, sold, and used here you’ll be surprised. In fact the entire class time working and taking the guns apart was done with the most basic of hand tools. Small hammer, punches, etc. The only task specific tools I recall were the ejector removal tool for the bolt and the pin installation and removal tool for the front take down pin retaining pin. Compared to the work time spent on the A2 sight we only removed the ejector one time during the course.
Some small notations that take me back to information on this site compared to the actual class.
The instructor had never seen or heard of a MOACK’s tool. I showed him mine out of my tool kit during a break. He did seem impressed with it.
At one point he informed the class to buy HK magazines as they are the most reliable magazine available for the AR/M15 weapons. During a break I visited with him about the HK mags history and he’d never heard of any problems with them.
The “that guys” in the class. Yes, you’ll likely meet them. We had one guy that went on and on to everyone about every gun on Earth he knew about. From how much better his Mini 14 was than the AR series to how a 1911 was the only pistol in the world. Another fellow that almost failed the course. I mention this only as a footnote to the lowest common denominator statement previously. Some departments this really is what you have shoving things down your throat as firearms trainers or armorers.
In closing, take the class if you have an opportunity. There is a lot of great basic fundamentals and information covered. Hands on experience is always invaluable. There was a video presentation taken in the colt factory interviewing workers as well as a history of the weapons back to the beginnings with Armalite.
One note. They are updating the manuals that they give out with the courses in 2011 and they will now cost $50. To reflect that the cost of the LE course is going up $50 for both AR/M16 and 1911 this year. That may give you an idea of something to budget for.
Edited so as not to hurt feelings.
IMHO Glock should do away with the 1 day basic Glock Armorers course it’s next to useless. The 2 day Advanced Armorers class is 100 times better. In my class this summer at Smyrna we had 14 students (3 civilians, 1 of which was me). The only guys struggling were the LE guys especially on the 2nd day when every student had to look over 18 different Glocks with various problems that you had to identify what was wrong and describe the fix. Some guns had 1 problem, some had up to 5 problems.
I haven’t read all the responses here so please forgive if i dupe some info already posted.
I took the Colt Course with Heath several years ago. This was my first experience in such a course. Heath was entertaining and informative. However later in life, there were things that I realized that weren’t covered that I wished had been. Barrel installation, headspacing etc is one such thing. We didn’t have bench vices in the class so we were somewhat limited. We also had to memorize a lot of info for the test, model numbers of various AR’s and M16’s that I didn’t think was necessary. I concur with what was stated about dissassembly of the rear sight assembly.
I recently took the S&W AR armorers course a few months ago in Springfield on my Dept’s dime. The course was one day shorter and we only worked on Semi Auto Trigger groups. Bench vices were available and we pulled a barrel. still didn’t go much into headspacing and such tho. Didn’t disassemble the rear sight assembly as the instructor stated that if the assembly went fubar, S&W would just replace the entire carry handle.
overall i learned much from both courses and glad i’ve attended.
It was nothing remotely like that my go around. Roughly ten or so questions and failing wasn’t what I’d see as a consideration. The individual I mentioned above with problems was related to doing the physical disassembly of the guns.
The instructor did mention that in his previous class he was forced to fail two individuals. I can’t begin to wrap my head around how they could have possibly failed but if they were that bad it was the right choice for him to make. If you can’t pass a Colt Armorer’s class (Or any other manufacturer) you have no business fiddling with things that people’s lives depend on.