For those who have taken this course I would like to know your opinion on the course, likes and dislikes or if you know someone who has taken the course what do they think. I have an opportunity to snag a spot in one of the upcoming classes and wanted a little background beforehand.
Thanks in advance,
Milt
What they presented was MOSTLY good, solid information. Covers rifle, carbine and subgun. Unfortunately they left out some information I thought would be useful. I can’t remember how many times we stripped down the rear sight to all the bits and pieces (something I don’t really anticipate ever having to do).
The bad: - they say they recommend against ever removing or replacing the barrel.
- If the gas key comes loose retorque with red loctite. no mention of staking.
I also grew weary of the “Every rifle and every 1911 ever made that is not Colt is complete rubbish. No exceptions.”
+1
They had be scared to replace a barrel. Good class overall but dogged on anything not Colt. The instructor even cracked on Wilson Combat in the Colt 1911 Class I took.
Pat
I have taken the course a few times and I recommend highly if you want to actually learn something about your musket. As for the bagging on the competition…when you still see crap like BM, DPMS, over-priced Wilson Combat rifles and carbines out there screwing up, I don’t blame 'em.
Ken Elmore is especially good.
Pat
Definately should go if you can. I’ve been twice over the years. Kind of cool working on the sub-gun, had never had my hands on one till class. I agree with the above though, they slam anything not Colt. They definately shy away f/ barrel changes. We blazed over headspacing also, they did not feel it was important. I agree its not as important as a bolt rifle, but still think its a factor.
I did one of them with Ken, the other with Mike Heath. Don’t remember the other time.
Headspace is probably the easiest thing on the weapon. Changing out a lower receiver extension is harder. One needs only follow the simple steps and have the right tools.
strongisland,
I took Ken’s course in January and highly recommend it. Since Ken left Colt, he’s now free to slam Colt when they deserve it as well as anyone else (and he does). Because of this I would recommend going to the SA course instead of the Colt. The material is the same as what the Colt course has. A quote from Ken “everything is crap until proven otherwise.” He will give you the no B.S. answer to your questions.
strongisland, the course is great. I’m not sure what your experience or background is. But, the course is a chance to learn the basics and learn how to do things “right.” You will get a lot of hands on experience detail stripping guns. If you learn from a friend, out of a book or off of the internet, you run the risk of doing things the wrong way and probably not realizing it until it’s too late.
But that being said, the “right” way (as taught in these types of courses) is not always the best way. There are a lot of people that have better ways to do things, and they have all sorts of tricks and insight. But there are a LOT more people who think they know what they’re doing and don’t!
I think of factory trained armorers as factory certified car mechanics. It’s always a safe bet to take your car to the car dealership and have it worked on by factory certified mechaincs. But, in my opinion, the best mechanics are often not factory certified. I feel the same way about people who work on guns.
Along those lines, understand that armorer courses are not gunsmith courses. You’ll learn a lot about problem diagnosis and factory parts replacement. But, you won’t learn the fancy stuff. You also won’t learn about the common non-factory parts and accessories that are on the market. But just knowing the basics and knowing how to do things right will put you ahead of 99.99% of the gun people out there.
Joe Mamma
The course instructor is Mike Heath. Any feedback on his classes?
Mike is GTG and you will enjoy his course. Oh yeah, see above.
Ha Ha yes. He is a Marine and he WANTS YOU TO KNOW IT!! He knows his business inside and out. Kept my attention very well. I recommend him as an instructor.
p.s. He carries a vintage WWII era Colt .45 (when he can) and there is no reason to carry anything else or change anything about it. I have a Kimber TLE II for a range gun and just to mess with him I carried it to class one day. Hilarity ensued.
He’s excellent and very funny.
Joe Mamma
I would recommend doing the course with Dean Caputo. He covers everything including staking the BCG and reaming the chamber with tools made by Ned Christiansen. Dean is also entertaining as well.
In Colt’s training the potential for good course content was there, but certain [I feel] important elements are glossed over while other, less vital ones are covered ad nauseum.
For example, we were shown barrel removal/installation being accomplished once as the final day wrapped up, with no mention of headspace checking procedures. On the other hand, we completely disassembled/reassembled the A2 rear sight a countless number of times.
If your outfit primarily uses optics all that practice on this sight was wasted after about the third trip. It’s good to have some hands on time with this, but being capable of performing this in your sleep isn’t required in most of the student’s real world.
Considering the tuition they’re charging, I’d also expect Colt to have their act much more together as far as equipment is concerned.
To give you an idea, many of the tool kits used were missing necessary items. Students were constantly having to wait for others to finish and pass tools from table to table due to shortages.
It’s understandable that the rifles used are so loose as to be unrealistic when compared with what the students will be dealing with in the field, but having bolt catches held on by firing pin retaining pins as a shortcut was a bit much. In other words, students received zero practice in their realisitc removal/installation. Somehow, one rifle we used even had a Bushmaster upper.
Alongside other manufacturer’s armorer schools I’d say instructor experience, knowledge and dedication was good. Someone just getting into working on the AR/M16 can learn a lot from them, but IMHO course structure/content and [especially] factory support for this program is lacking.
I’ve heard nothing but good about Ken Elmore’s schools at SA. Their offering of both basic and advanced armorer training also sounds good for new gun techs. First learn to walk, take a few trips around the block, then learn to run.
IIRC the criticisms you speak of have been the same for the last few years. The impression that I got is that Colt Management doesn’t see the need to replace worn parts with good ones to make the point. I definitely agree that they need to hit on the re-barrel thing because in this day and age. They should have covered the headspace issue as well. Another thing that would be good is more troubleshooting stuff.
I plan on taking Ken’s advanced course whenever I end up back home.
I took it from Ken a few years ago, and thought it was good, but would be better had we gone over removing/installing barrels.
As mentioned it is a good class, especially if it is your first one. You will learn a lot. Since we are issued Colts we pretty much only attend the Colt class. Liability wise we are required to keep our certs updated since the Colt certs require a re-cert every 3 years. I have been to Ken’s class and twice with Bob Gawe. Also from the Colt class you get the option to buy certain Colt weapons at a discounted price upon completion of the course.
I agree the amount of time spent on the A2 sight is crazy and I have still never touched one outside of class. Much more time needs to be spent on the rebarrel and Colt needs to get away from the “its too hard” approach.