With winter approaching (or already here for me in Alaska, and those of you on the East Coast) I would like to have a discussion covering topics related to running an AR in cold weather.
For the purpose of this discourse, let’s say that cold weather constitutes sustained temperatures of 25 degrees F and colder.
Assume that there is snow on the ground at least 6 inches deep.
I am going to concentrate on military and LE use, but understand that a lot of the good information we will be getting is going to be coming out of civilian run schools and training courses and welcome discussion of civilian issues as well.
Issues that “I” would like to see discussed:
type and specific use of lubrication.
what gear to use and how you change your setup (relating to using your rifle).
glove options/ aftermarket trigger guards.
severe external temperature changes (hours on perimeter or patrol followed by entry to warm building) and effects of that on optics and the rifle.
Severe internal temperature changes (rifle that has been in subzero temps for hours, and then fires a large number of rounds, heating it up
getting snow and other debris into the working parts of the rifle.
If this has been covered in detail, please let me know, but I was unable to find anything comprehensive with the dreaded “search” button
Of course it would be appropriate for me to start with what I have to say on the issues.
First, some of the modifications I have made to my Colt 6920 directly related to cold weather ops are:
-Magpul enhanced trigger guard to fit thicker WARM winter gloves
-Hogue rubber grip, I have found that this type of grip works better for me with large winter gloves, particularly if I am getting snow on said gloves
-BCM GF(mod4) charging handle, offers some extra purchase when the digits are in the later stages of getting numb (yes, even with above mentioned warm gloves)
Here is where I am still trying to figure things out:
-good lube, and best way to use it… thick or thin coats?
-cold optics (like the Aimpoint PRO I just ordered from Grant) going into warm buildings… I know when I used to wear glasses that they would fog easily
-effects of extreme cold on battery life and power output of flashlights, lasers or optics
From experiences iv unfortunately had with cold weather training I think I can contribute a little bit. I can speak mostly from issued gear and what conclusions I drew from that.
As for grips, I use a MOE on my personal but I did find that the standard A2 grip worked well with thicker gloves because of the nub in the front provided a solid anchor. Although uncomfortable with thinner gloves like Mechanix, worked well with something more forgiving. Possibly if your in a region with drastic temp changes threw out the year the MIAD’s interchangeability might work well for someone who agrees.
In addition to this unless your in a defensive stationary position I would just stick with normal use gloves, obviously once you start moving your not going to need all that insulation, in reality it becomes a burden.
As for optics, I know for the Acog i never had an issue with fogging going from cold to hot, nor did aimpoints. It was never so servier like going from something like 15 degrees to 80. but that’s probably unrealistic anyway. I saw people using Divers anti fog pray on there glasses and goggles, some of them worked well but a friend of mine used a cheaper brand and that froze up and looked like your windshield after a ice storm. So take that with a grain of salt.
I think your lube is definitely an important piece of gear to take into great consideration. I once used an oil made by tetra and that literally froze like an ice block, fucking pissed me off. As a machine gunner I had some pretty good lubes to use. I believe the one for cold weather is LAW or LSA-W but I don’t really recall off the top of my head. Ill edit later. It worked well on our m4s as well as our 240s.
Batteries definitely take a hit in cold weather. I would recommend that if you have gear that relies on batteries to keep a spare close on your body (For me in my chest pocket under my flack) to keep them warm. Its not scientific but I was taught that and feel like it works.
As far as snow getting into/onto your rifle, Unless you getting it logged in your barrel Id be lead to believe there’s no big issue. Unless your letting it ice onto it. Its not like dust that wont just melt. clumps of wet dirt are a bitch tho. Proper maintenance can overcome any issue.
Id also like to hear what people have to say about extreme cold to hot on internal temperatures on your rifle. I’m sure that must have some detrimental effects in the long run.
JSOP, I like how you referred to the nub on the A2 style grips as an “Anchor”, I have been struggling with how to articulate that. That is part of what works well for me with the Hogue grips - the individual finger grooves are anchors. I am familiar with LAW (former 0331 myself) but I never used anything like that on an AR style platform…
I have routinely gone from temps of -25 to a 75 degree apartment in a matter of seconds - so not so un-realistic up here! but I am certain that it is not as common of a problem in the lower 48. Up till now I have fired almost exclusively irons, with a few months of ACOG use in 04’ - but the biggest temp change then was pretty mild. Another issue I have seen in the past is after glass fogs up inside, heading back out causes it to freeze creating the same problem that you had with the off brand de-fogger.
Interesting topic! I’ve done a couple of months of winter training (not with the AR but with our duty carbines, thoughts applies to most weapons though) in temps down to -30 degrees F.
I know a lot of people don’t like Break Free CLP but it works in quite low temperatures (- 40 is the lowest I’ve ran it in). I’ve run this in our M249 and M240, which get more abused than the carbines, for a lot of rounds in cold weather and haven’t had a problem yet. I’m sure there are other products that work fine, this is the one I have experience with though.
I’ve not experienced any problems with the Aimpoint fogging up going into warm buildings. The thing with glasses is that they are so close to your face thus being warmed up by your body heat. The problem I have seen though is people coming in from the cold with snowy weapons, the snow melting on the weapon in the building and and then the melted snow freezes again when going into the cold which can cause a malfunction. Always try to keep the weapon free of snow. A no brainer! Taping up your muzzle before going on patrol is a good tip.
Regarding glove options. I think a combo is the way to go if you’re going to be out in the cold for longer periods. Put on the regular gloves or slightlty thicker and then a couple of proper mittens over those. We use a mitten with a strap that attaches to your arm. The right glove in the picture http://vantar.handledare.org/vantar.JPG Since they fit rather loose on your hand they can easily be thrown of. This also allows for some air around your hand to isolate your from the cold.
And as someone mentioned. Keep batteries close to your body if possible. A cold battery can loose between 40 - 60 % of it’s regular capacity in winter conditions.
Hope there was something you could use!
Good topic! I’m still looking for a pair of gloves to shoot with this winter. I usually wear Carhartt 100g thinsulate gloves when I’m plowing snow on my quad but after a few hours of my hands doing nothing but sitting on handlebars they still get cold. I’ve made a habit of wiggling my fingers whenever I get the chance to keep blood flowing.
As far as lube goes I will continue to use my handy Mobil 1 15w-50
There are no perfect gloves which give you good manual dexterity while at the same time keeping your hands warm hour after hour. Just like with other winter clothing you to need to work with layers. That or keeping two pairs of ¨gloeves on you. On pair of mittens (keep your warm much better than gloves) that you put on as soon as your not doing hard work or the temp is dropping. And one pair of gloves for when you need to work with your hands or expect to sweat a lot. The mittens always need to be dry. So if youäre starting to sweat put the mittens away and get your sweaty gloves out.
Its not just the lenses but the entire gun can form condensate so rust prevention is crucial. Wipe them off several times with a dry cloth and apply a light coat of oil which has good rust prevention properties. This is also important because if leave water droplets on the gun it can freeze parts together if you go back out.
As far as lenses on optics go I would use some anti fogging stuff for motorcycle helmets. It will be just a light film and will not obstruct the view. I used to use it with a full face helmet and it works great. How much condensate forms is dependent on how humid the warm environment is how much humidity is in the air.
LAW is lubricant, artic weapons and is what the TM recommends for extreme cold weather operation. Some typical lubes like CLP can thicken up and slow the action down enough to cause stoppages.
For keeping snow out of the gun keep a magazine inserted, dust cover closed, and use one of the black muzzle caps.
If you have a standard trigger guard its actually meant to swing down for use with gloves but does leave the trigger exposed. You can get over sized trigger guards from a few companies. I personally use the KAC combat trigger guards. Magpul makes good ones, too.
My experience with cold weather operations and the AR comes from a few trips to Hohenfels and Grafenwoehr in Germany. We spent in a month in field conditions with 2ft of snow on the ground at one point. Not Alaska cold but stayed well below freezing the entire time.
Try some smart wool glove liners under your main gloves. They are not too thick and wool is one of the best things for keeping warm. Allows a little more flexibility and layering than just one pair of huge gloves.
I did quite a bit of shooting in January of this year in Minnesota. The temps were around zero degrees (or below) with wind and snow. 25 degrees, by comparison, would have been wonderful.
As for garments, I would typically wear Carhartt bibs and coat with multiple layers below. They are heavy, but they are quite warm. As for gloves, Cabela’s has insulated shooting gloves are they are usable, but not extremely warm. The problem, however, is that I doubt that any glove that is extremely warm could fit within the trigger guard, even with extended trigger guards. Personally I use the Magpul MOE trigger guards.
As for lubrication, the guns were using CLP and the amounts were generous. CLP did not seem to be a problem. I have switched now to Mil-Comm and I will determine how that performs as the season progresses. Many years ago I recall Chuck Taylor recommending Remington Rem-Oil as the best cold weather lube based on testing he had done - but I have no personal experience with that.
I would note a couple of things about shooting in very cold temps.
Finding a way to protect the face from severe weather and at the same time wear glasses is quite a challenge. I have yet to figure out a good solution to fogging. Also, trying to figure out ear protection on top of hats is a problem. I tend to use Surefire inserts instead.
One item deals with beards: as the temps drop, breath will condense and facial hair will freeze to the charging handle.
Shooting in very cold temps revealed something very beneficial: some ammunition is temperature sensitive. In summer conditions, my M4 would function perfectly with S&B ammunition. S&B, however, in very cold conditions, seemed to lack the power to adequately cycle the action. I had many short-stroking failures with S&B. Testing ammo in all weather conditions seems to be a worthwhile endeavor since we have no guarantee that defensive use situations will always be in perfect conditions.
As for batteries, I have found that while AA batteries are temperature sensitve, lithium batteries such as CR123 are not.
I have not encountered any problems with snow getting into the guns causing malfunctions. I have, however, noticed that different metals contract at different rates in cold conditions. Aluminum versus steel versus plastics will fit differently in very cold conditions. This is not from the AR context, but the Mesa tactical shell holder for my Benelli shotgun would not reliably hold shells in severe weather while in summer conditions it was not a problem.
The benefits of winter shooting are many: no bugs and far fewer people on the range. Enjoy!
For those that operate in cold temps but still want dexterity, sometimes I roll with liners and a hand warmer muff (Eagle made a softshell handwarmer muff. I’m not sure how to get a hold of one). Allows freedom of movement while still keeping warm.
For very cold weather and higher security postures (where hands need to be on weapon controls at all times) I go with OR Firebrands or Black Diamond Guide type gloves (I would also look at the Arcteryx Alpha SV) . One needs to practice with these to understand the nuances of shooting with thick gloves however.
“One item deals with beards: as the temps drop, breath will condense and facial hair will freeze to the charging handle.”
I had to laugh out loud at this - very applicable to me right now! Thanks I will keep an eye on my beard.
Chuck - I have had some of the same experience with CR123’s, they dont seem to be affected by the cold as much as AA’s. If anyone knows why, or if we are off base in that observation please let me know.
I will note that I wear glove liners under my outer gloves (haven’t used mittens yet) because at many of the temperatures I have been working in before I don’t want my bare skin to be touching anything metal. I would suggest that if you are wearing over gloves, or mittens to make sure that they are attached to your sleeves some how, so if you throw them off to shoot you don’t lose them.
Try some of that stuff I mentioned for fog proofing motorcycle helmet lenses. It works very well at keeping condensation off lenses and such. Its basically just a very fluid wax that wipes off to leave a thin film.
Well glass today is certainly better than it used to be. The 1st time I went big game hunting I had an old commercial Mauser with an old Weaver scope. You could unscrew the rear bell and see all the internals of the scope (not sealed). Now all you need to do is wipe the lens off with a cloth or something (its not going to fog internally because they have inert gas in them)…but the helmet lens treatment should keep it from forming in the first place on the outside lenses.
The product below is outstanding for shooting glasses, regular glasses, and sunglasses. I found it last summer. It is very popular with HD riders from Sturgis.
Caveat: I have yet, however, to test it during winter conditions. It may or may not work well in winter. I have also not tried it on Eotechs, Aimpoints, or on scope lenses.
I applied the concept of layering to my gloves. Not that easy when it comes to being able to feel through them and manipulate things.
What I found was a pair of under armour “like” gloves at Any Mountain. They are super thin and allow me to wear them under another pair of gloves. This allows me to keep my hands very warm and still be able to manipulate things and feel my controls to various things. I use this set up for hunting mostly.
Problem is the gloves are over 10 years old, have no tag left to read, so I can’t tell you the brand. I checked Any Mountain’s website and could not find anything like I got there. So this really isn’t any help at all except as an idea.
But if you can find something like I’m talking about, it works great.
