Cleaning the M4, How does it harm?

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

I usally clean my AR’s after every range session with a few exceptions.

I keep hearing that “over cleaning” or cleaning to often wears out the parts more then actually firing the weapon.

For isntance I take a brass flat head screwdriver and scrape off the carbon build up behind the gas rings to prevent pitts in my bolt. A notable gunsmith told me this just damages the bolt even more but didnt state how.

obviously theres a diffrence between neglection and obessession with cleaning but where’s the balance?

I usally strip down the BCG and clean out the extractor clean all the of the springs in the BCG. Clean the bore and chamber with diffreny nylon or brass bruses. Hardly ever clean gas tube and lower parts. I use Hoppe’s 9 and/or Blue wonder. Stainless steel and/or nylon brushes.

how does cleaning a rifle cause more harm then not?

Rob

2

Some people get ‘over’ aggressive cleaning. This means using very harsh chemicals, abrasives, steel rods etc on ARs. The AR doesn’t need to be operating room sterile. You just want it clean and well lubed, it doesn’t need to be ‘white’ glove clean. People do all kinds of stuff like Dremeling, sanding, scraping the tail ends of AR bolts sometimes damaging the gas rings etc.

The only time I clean off the bolt completely free of carbon is for long term storage, I use Slip2000 carbon cutter which softens the carbon really well and it wipes off with a rag.
Normally I only use a pull-thru boresnake to clean the barrel. I use a Dewey chamber rod & brush and clean the chamber very well with that. Everything else is cleaned with Slip2000 725 degreaser and wiped out. Then I lube it up with Slip2000 gun lube, Militec-1 or Machinegunners/10-8 lube (whichever I have close by).

I use a rigid bore rod (Dewey) maybe twice a year with Sweets 762 followed by Shooters Choice, then Slip2000 725.

3

I’ve only heard “over cleaning” while in the Corps. What we mean there is a young troop takes his weapon apart to get it white glove clean so he can get liberty. Then can’t get it back together.

The parts you’re scrapping clean are hardened steel, how does a gunsmith expect you to hurt that with a brass scrapper? The only place to be very careful is the crown down inside the flash suppressor. Common sense is the rule of the day here, use an abrasive on the external finish and it will come off, same with the sights, then they’ll shine nice in the sun.

There’s field clean and inspection clean. Field clean is just that, clean it so that it functions, remove the crud from the outside that can hold moisture and cause rust, don’t forget those sights… But it’s all a balancing act. Too much lube to protect the steal from rust attracts crud, which holds moisture, which…

EDIT: If you want your rifle cleaner than is needed, go for it. Just don’t use some chemical that will take off the finish or give you cancer…

4

I’m one of the add lube and ignore type of guys – I do dust and rust once a week - and if I’ve been on a chopper or open vehicle I will usually give it a quick once over.

I’ve never been a big fan of cleaning – I’ve seen troops use hand cleaner, use a screwdriver on the crown, take a drill with a section of cleaning rod and the chamber brush and go to town.

I lube – and every now and then wipe down the bolt – if its been a high rate of fire event or lot of rounds, especially with a can - I will clean the bolt beyond a wipe.

Over cleaning to me - is troops cleaning for “inspection” clean repeatedly after range practices – and frankly the stupity of inspection clean always bothered me — since its simply wasting time that could have been spent more productively elsewhere – I’ve seen a lot of weapons ruined by overcleaning – but it takes time – something that I doubt a civilian would do (imagine sitting at the base cleaning your weapons for 4-5 hours a day for two weeks straight…)

I’m a big fan of MPro7 cleaners.

5

By no means am I an operator, just a 3 gunner/IPSC shooter. Buy some gun scrubber or carbon killer and take out the bolt and hose it down with the high pressure spray (IF IT’S DIRTY). Gunked up carbon may need a brush. A boresnake is good to have but just be sure to put a oily patch thru the barrel before storage (especially if not chrome lined) or squirt some oil on the end of the boresnake on the last pull through. Little lube inside the holes in the bolt. I normally just rub CLP/equivalent on the bolt carrier (after wiping it off after the gun scrubber blasting) and work the bolt back and forth and thats it. Which I normally don’t shoot more than 300-500 the most in a day/weekend match. Just my .02…

6

I think a lot of the punishment is to the bore and the finish. Oven cleaner and all sorts of insane things have been circulated. When I was in OCS, we aggressively used the bore brush, pulling it through dozens of times for each cleaning for each inspection or after each FEX. I took this habit into my privatley owned firearms until a few years ago when I asked myself, Why?. Armorers have a lot to do with it too. They won’t take a dirty weapon and as mentioned the desire for libo drives men to take extreme measures.

7

I concur, AR/M16 weapons system doesn’t need to be kept white glove clean. As I reflect back on my time in the Corps I realize a lot of this inspection clean nonesense was prolly a continuance of the Vietnam war hysteria that if the weapon wasn’t so clean to eat off of it wouldn’t work. When I was boot & later a SDI we cleaned the weapons dry. After cleaning, there should not be any lube, carbon or debris anywhere an inspector could rub a finger. Those weapons were used over & over again by different users over the years & finish starts to come off & parts start to wear protectives.

When you clean a weapon this harshly & turn it in to the armory with no lube then you will get rust. Then the none-protected metal parts start to decay so to speak. At least in N. & S. Carolina where I spent my time other than when on deployments to other dry & tropic type environments. I know know this was all rubbish & unnecessary. As long as all the parts operate as designed & the chamber & bore areas are clear of obstructions, the weapon will function if nothing is malfanctioning.

Much of these cleaning myths were thought up by the zeros (Marine enlisted jargon for commissioned officers:rolleyes: ) & you know how the disease can spread from there. Now that I’m a quasi civ & operator on my dept’s tac team coupled with my operator experience in the Corps, my weapon is lubed & carfully watched for any carbon build up on crucial parts. I still like to keep my weapons well maintained, but they are not srcubbed with harsh or abrasive solvents. Lubed with CLP, nylon chamber brush & inspected for debris that may clog.

The only thing I would recommend other than staying away from harsh solvents is not punch the bore with a sectioned mil cleaning rod. These rods flex & each section that’s screwed onto the next may not line up. This can scrape the bore as the rods flex & damge the rifling or bore. I only swap the bore with an Otis nylon coated bore cable after a few hundred rounds until the swabs come out fairly white. I never use a bore brush & never a sectioned metal rod.

8

I had always thought that the anal retentive inspection cleanings were just hold overs from when corosive ammo was the norm. SHooting that stuff, you had to clean it to that level. This mindset became institutionalized and now 50 years since we shot corrosive ammo, you still must get the weapon white glove clean.

9

Anyone here ever use parts washers? You know the kind they have in automotive shops but use a cleaning agent like Slip or something else. Seems like cleaning with one of those would be a breeze. I generally just use Hoppes and CLP with a standard M4/M16 cleaning kit. And use Miltec-1 as a lube but will be looking into slip 2000 products though.

10

I’ve used an automotive parts washer filled with solvent for cleaning before. It worked great.

In fact, as I set up my new shop over the next couple of weeks, that will be one of my first purchases.

11

When I get back from a match or a good practice session I always clean my guns. Usually I just take out the bolt spray it down with carb cleaner, take my boresnake and run it through the barrel a few times and then I just lube up my gun. I get accused of owning Exxon or Texaco stock from time to time but my guns like it wet.

That is the typical cleaning of my AR’s. I do detailed cleaning when I get done with a class or come back from a big shoot. For instance a few weeks ago when I got back from the MGM Ironman I spent about 45 minutes detail cleaning my gun. But my regular cleaning job is at the most a 10 minute job.

-Dave

12

The Marine Corps has always been ultra conservative to the nth degree re cleaning.
Gunny- unsure of where you got your dope re “VN war hysteria” but we cleaned M1’s on 3 consecutive days in 1963 ; M14’s on 3 consecutive days in 63 and on; M3A1’s and 1911’s on 3 consecutive days; and i can tell you that i watched men from a HSLD unit do the same in 2003.

It served no purpose, but it kept the troops busy i suppose.

Anyway…
Removal of carbon from certain areas (bolt lugs, BC, upper receiver) makes sense. The bolt tail makes no sense and we teach to ignore. I have been in the game a long time, put a few rounds downrange a year, and have never seen a bolt "pit or corrode under carbon. I imagine it might happen if you don’t shoot, but i just looked at a filthy A1 bolt that was in a gun and stored since 1990. I cleaned the carbon off of the bolt tail. No pitting.
Of course, that is a poor statistical sample.

Re gas tube. No, don’t ever clean that manually. I have seen them wear out, but pressing the trigger does an excellent job of cleaning that.
The AR needs to be realistically clean- more than that is not necessary.
I’ll wipe the bolt down and clean the chamber at intervals- those being dependent on WX and ammo types.
The gun is well lubed with Slip 2000 or Machine Gunners Lube. I won’t let CLP near my body again. I brought 5 gallons to the recycle station when i moved.

Of course, what do i know?

13

YutYut Pat,

The reference to VN war hysteria was what I was told by a salty vet of that conflict when I was boot in the mid-late 80’s as it pertained to the M16’s teething probs back then. Well, all weapons for that matter. Granted, the Corps was, is & will always pound into your brain housing group the fact that your weapon better be dry & ultra clean before you plt or company co inspects it. Heck, when I was on the street I expected the same from my recruits. That’s the Marine Corps way with weapons cleaning.

I was the same before I knew any better, but I didn’t own the weapons I was issued & was playing the game as any good Marine does. I’ve been out for a while & I have no doubt, as you stated ref your 2003 comment, that this method continues to this day. I spend time cleaning my weapons after use, just not in this way anymore & I’m still one of the most analistic, scuz the deck, nope too late get back, still think I’m the Corps gents out there. :eek:

14

Roger Gunny, copy! I was like that too and believed it all necessary. It took a while…:cool:

15

What is Machine Gunner’s Lube, it is known by another common name or product designation (e.g., LSA, MilComm3000)?

I won’t let CLP near my body again. I brought 5 gallons to the recycle station when i moved.

Health issues? Or because you don’t think it’s effective? Isn’t Slip2000 a CLP?

16

Machine Gunners Lube, by Tactical Springs. I have relatively limited use on it, but appears OK.
Slip is still my favorite.
Re CLP- Yes, and yes.
Slip markets as a CPL, but it is different from the mil issued CLP.
My body has absorbed enough toxic waste over the years. I am not looking to be exposed to any more unnecessary stuff.

17

Gunlovin’

You know the s***storm I started with that comment on 1911forums.

The point of the comment is the irony of it. Cleaning isthought to be caring for your weapon, so the irony is, someone who thinks hes caring for his weapon is actually doing the opposite.

Just disassemblying the weapon will cause some wear, especially the way “joe” will do that. Heres what I’ve seen in the way of cleaning…

oven cleaner
Tide and hot showers
Brake and carb cleaner
simplegreen and other houshold cleaners
greenpads
borebrushes
borebrushes chucked up in drills
Stainless steel toothbrushes
steelwool
you get the idea
I’ve seen one “Sgt” instruct his troops to scrub the finish of the exposed barrel on their M16a2’s, and one Pvt. use a greenpad to scrub his SAW white, no one told him it was supposed to be black.

This is what causes the wear.

Where 3 days came from, I have no idea, but in about '96. there was a PM monthly published, that stated it was un-needed. The weapon should be cleaned once IAW the TM, which is not much. White gloves, 3 days. etc. etc. were not needed.

My 1sgt at the time, looked at the Pub. threw it down, and said he didn’t care, they will be cleaned white glove etc. BTW, him and his type are the reason I got out.

My Soldiers, were instructed that I did not have a 3 day standard, just one standard…clean. Of course that standard was entirely dependent on how I felt, or who was inspecting behind me. Once in awhile, I had to explain to the Spc4 armorer who was actually in charge, but hey, the troops liked it.

What I do now, when I feel guilty, I shotgun it, hose of the assembled BCG with gunscrubber, hose out the upper and chamber with the same, pull a bore snake through it(maybe) and re-lube.

My issued weapon requires a little more, it is their gun, it gets cleaned after every range session, but know one inspects it, but, we use automotve parts washers with Zep cleaning fluid, so it makes it pretty simple. I still don’t go nuts, and only punch the bore with a few patches. I use the tw-25 we have for other weapons to lube with.

This whole myth that the AR is unreliable because it “s**ts where it eats” is crap, I’ve shot around 2000 rounds threw my Colt, w/o cleaning, and when I did clean it, it was because I felt guilty, not malfunctions, and I followed the procedure above.

At one time I bought into the whole 3 day regimen, white glove, etc I even used Sweets on the chrome lined barrel, which was not good, now I know better.

Bob

18

Bob notice i didnt ask this question on 1911??? I came here because this forum is much more prefessional and there is better information here.

Also Bob I noticed you mention Sweets cleaner (Sweets 7.62) whats wrong with it??? I happen to have a few bottles laying around.

Rob

19

Pat you stated “An AR should be realisitcally clean” would you be willing to take the time to define realisically?

I dont shoot everday, mostly every weekend except during thunderstorm season here in texas.

Rob

20

I’ll tag on here regarding the mil issue multi sectioned rods. They will be harsh to your barrel. If you do use them, PULL the brush or patch through from the chamber to muzzle. Never push, because they do flex.