Claude Warner bursts the bad breath bubble

“Or that 0-3 feet distance that most fights take place in the real world”

Let’s examine that statement. Various figures are cited as the source for statements making this assertion, most commonly “the FBI.” However, the FBI does not gather information about distance of gunfights in routine submissions to the Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program.

The only information on distances is gathered as supplemental data in cases where police officers are actually Killed. These data are compiled in Table 36 - Distance Between Victim Officer and Offender, 2002–2011. However, this table reports only a very small subset (63 of 2,209, or 2.85% for 2011) of gunfights police engaged in.

Even these data must be interpreted carefully because the distance given is for where the officer was actually killed. For example, a State Trooper returning home was ambushed from across the street at a distance of 35 yards with a rifle and severely wounded. His assailant then walked over to him and executed the Trooper at close range with a handgun. Since the Trooper was killed at almost touching distance, he was reported as a 0-5 feet casualty. The ‘fight’ actually took place at 35 yards, though.

The data collected about the totality of police gunfights is compiled in Table 70 - Type of Weapon and Percent Injured, 2002–2011. No distances are provided in this Table. It does list an interesting piece of information that provides a reality check on the “0-3 feet distance” assertion.

“Other dangerous weapons” and “Personal weapons,” which must be used at contact distances, report injury rates to officers of 24.0% and 28.5%, respectively, over the past 10 years. On the other hand, firearms report an injury rate of only 9.4% over the past 10 years. If most police gunfights took place within three feet, it would seem reasonable to expect that the injury rate would most likely approach 100.0% rather than 9.4%.

Using these data to partially vet the distance of police gunfights would seem to indicate that police gunfights do NOT take place at near contact distances. More likely, gunfights actually take place at considerably further distances where popular point shooting techniques employed by criminals are rather ineffective.

A more justifiable assertion based on the data tables would be that if a police officer is shot (at) by a criminal at a distance of under 5 feet, the possibility of death is high. The data gathering and analytical capabilities of the FBI and UCR are probably not necessary to arrive at that conclusion.

The only study that actually looked at distances of gunfights in a detailed and methodical way was done for Police Marksman magazine by Richard Fairburn in the 1990s. The average distance reported in that study was 14 yards.

The problem with statistics is that their data collection methods and interpretations must be well understood before the final product becomes useful information. And the actual source for the statistic must be determined and vetted to be real and appropriate.

Crap,now people will have to use sights again.

My information is not based on a funded academic or scientific study.

After the FBI shootout in Miami, one of our Range Officers conducted a study on likely engagement distances for officers on traffic stops, so training could be tailored to fit the needs of the officers. One of the results of the study was that the firefight would occur inside 13 yards.

Shooting incidents that occurred inside the home that I have investigated were at distances of less than 7 yards.

In all instances, shots fired without the use of sights at greater than contact distance were misses.

I would like to read a D.O.J. study on the use of sights in LEO involved shootings. If you have access to a link, I would apprecitate it.

And your point is?

My information is not intended as a study, it’s intended to show a widespread misinterpretation of the FBI’s heavily funded study. In fact, Fairburn’s study was a funded academic/scientific study so I’m not sure what you are speaking about.

If I am reading T2C’s post correctly, I took it to mean the information he referenced in his post is not based on a funded academic/scientific study.

I could be reading that wrong though.

That’s right. My information is based on what I and other people from the department have learned and not any sort of study.

I have read some of the FBI studies and always wonder how they came up with their numbers. We make changes to our training by analyzing what has worked and what hasn’t worked for our people.

Several decades ago, the NYPD report of firearms discharge - NYPD SOP 9 - was touted as a good source of information.

Lt. Francis McGee (IIRC) compiled the original information from the report.

I just googled it and there is a copy of the 2010 report on line - my browser shutdown halfway through opening it, so I don’t know if the data is compiled in a usable manner. It has 88 pages.

Regarding the FBI UCR Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted - I have spent the better part of three decades shifting through each years data on officers killed and assaulted - I’m the first to admit that one of the major drawbacks is that the data is primarily based on cases where officers have not prevailed.

I’ve found that if you keep your nose on the data you WILL pick up emerging trends in officer assaults - well before the magazine police survival experts start talking about them.