Civilian traing + Mil backround question

Training Training and Tactics
1

So with the new year im looking at getting into a few classes. I have an infantry background and im familiar with the ar15 platform obviously.

I haven’t attended any training outside of the military and I’m curious about a few things. I know there are some posts in the past about this but nothing truly addressing my concerns. It may come across as me trying to make a statement but trust me im not im very curious because Im not knowledgeable in these things.

Im looking for some input on what people hope to gain from there courses and why they pick specific ones.

I have to admit I grind my teeth when I read something from a civilian where they imply that they are more competent then military personnel to engage in gunfights. I seem to see a lot of people say “well I would do this and then that…bet the Deployed guys don’t know that…” When they’ve never been in combat or shot at anything that isn’t paper. Real world experience is worth all the training in the world in my opinion Which leads me to my next thought.

** Disclaimer, Ill be the first one to say many military personnel, although effective in combat have never fine tuned their skills and are pretty brutish and misinformed as to effective procedures.
Example: Gieger Tigers banging their mags on there kevlars before inserting it… Seriously wtf I hate seeing that.

I have a friend who ive been trying to convince to attend with me. Lots of people say go with a buddy. He has four years of active service as an Infantry rifleman two tours in Iraq and a contracting position in Afgan under his belt.

He makes a good point in that " what are they going to teach me that I haven’t learned or encountered kicking doors in for 16 hours a day…?" He put a stick my my spokes. Hes right in that if its worked this far why change what we know? Now im thinking aren’t most trainers former military and where did they learn there specialized skills outside of military doctrine? Im thinking their skill sets add more to individual tactics as opposed to team tactics, correct me if im wrong. And there are some civilian trainers as well correct? I don’t know how to feel about that, please give me some insight on that.

Weren’t these type of classes initially created to prepare civilian contractors for work in Iraq/Afgan? While looking around trying to familiarize myself with the community ive seen a lot of civilian MOUT(shoot houses) and other training with people wearing full protective gear and combat load outs. I don’t really understand this.

Any and all input would be appreciated, I posted here as opposed to Lightfighter for a broader audience of Civilian,LEO, and MIL. I know this place has serious shooters and industry pros. I never considered AR15.com for obvious reasons, Im not even a member.

Its hard to find much out of NY in my area I plan of traveling to the Charlotte NC area which is my future residence.

2

The kind of training available on the market today places heavy emphasis on individual proficiency instead of team/squad/plt/company proficiency. They have a much higher degree of precision in individual coaching and performance bench-marks. They are more able and apt to change with newer TTPs. The instructors tend to come from a background with higher than average performance goals at all levels and they maintain contact with people all over the world with a variety of applications and skill requirements. They are not forced to “dumb-down” training to a perceived lowest common demoninator. They have years (if not decades) of experience in getting the highest level of performance in the shortest amount of time. They do not have to adhere to archaic range regulations published in the 385-63. They know what they are talking about and can perform tasks and standards on demand, not junior enlisted that fill in knowledge gaps with myths and fantasy. Their student base covers everyone from high level competitive shooter to SWAT members to Tier 1 operators. They see numerous different platforms and employment methods and therefore have a greater appreciation for what those changes really mean. Many instructors come from a Tier 1 or high performance background, which is rarely found in the training that is bulk-packaged and delivered to conventional units.

Students in most of these classes will shoot more in a 2-day class than most do in a year, with each and every round serving a purpose and with a lesson attached.
Above all, the instructors have to earn their pay, and the students expect to get their money’s worth.

I say this being a professional instructor, former military instructor, multiple tour combat veteran, and former junior enlisted dude with more opinions than knowledge. After spending time with me (while I was still in), and seeing what lies on the other side of the coin and a little urging, many of my good friends invested their own money to attend training, and I have not yet heard any of them say that their time or money was wasted.

Now, there are some very good military schools out there, but there are very few outside Tier 1 units that get the level of individual training that a good class will provide.

3

thank you for taking the time to post this. Sums it up very nicely.

I have to admit I grind my teeth when I read something from a civilian where they imply that they are more competent then military personnel to engage in gunfights. I seem to see a lot of people say “well I would do this and then that…bet the Deployed guys don’t know that…” When they’ve never been in combat or shot at anything that isn’t paper. Real world experience is worth all the training in the world in my opinion

FWIW I think you’re viewing things through a skewed lens.

In my experience, anyone outside of the very pointy tip of the spear or who has a very high (and rare) level of personal commitment and interest in marksmanship and firearms, is lacking in their ability to shoot. Shoot. not fight. I’m not qualified to comment on fighting. But 100% of the time the people I have shot with (and against, in matches) that have relied solely on their military training (outside of marksmanship teams) in terms of shooting have performed less well than all of the other shooters with multiple commercial training classes. I have never seen a shooter with only military training win a match, and never seen one take high shooter in a class. This applies to cops as well, FWIW.

This gets misconstrued as “you’re saying you could beat me at a fight or perform better than me in combat” which is not the same thing.

4

This is purely my experience, so take it for what it’s worth.

My dad is a CSM and has been in the military in a large range of capacities. He has been through several multi-week weapon- and -shooting-related courses including an SDM course where he was ringing steel out to 600 meters.

Upon his return from deployment to Afghanistan, I convinced him to go with me to Pat Roger’s carbine operator course. After those three days, he remarked that he had learned more about gunfighting and the ability to manipulate the weapon at the individual level than any training the military had ever given him.

5

Any chance you can get your Dad to respond to this thread? I believe what you say, having heard it from individuals at Pat’s classes of similar background.

6

No, he won’t make a post himself. If you have a specific question, I’d be happy to give him a call and get an answer. I thought that my dad’s background would make his observation relevant to the OP’s question, and my intent was simply to relay what he expressed to me after we took the class.

7

Approach all training, outside the military, with an open mind. I’m a retired Army Officer 15C35D & former Enlisted 11BVP. I was very skeptical of the training value in taking civilian classes. I learned pistol and rifle marksmanship in the Military and not real gun fighting TTPs. I started taking pistol classes locally and learned how to effectively employ my CCW. Eventually, I made my way onto this forum, then taking a Vickers Tactical basic pistol and carbine course, was my first formal instruction with the carbine, and learned from a former special operations “Operator” from a Tier 1 SMU, that effectively did bad things to bad people for a living, for a very long time, was an added bonus. That was were my “epiphany” occurred, where I realized that I was just practicing “marksmanship” during my own range time, in the same way I had done for years in the military and on several rifle teams. Larry’s instruction was an eye opening. I personally ate some humble pie in the fact that his class showed me what I didn’t know…how to use my pistol and carbine more efficiently and effectively. Way more than I ever learned in the Army.

I attended more advanced training with others from his former unit, which was another eye opener, as well as a couple of Pat Rogers classes, and civilian instructor Randy Cane at Cumberland Tactics. I mentioned Randy because I used to have a bias against civilian/police instructors without a Tier 1 background, but again, I was wrong. His CQT (Close Quarters Tactics) class was excellent. Shooting from bad breath distance and very physical ‘hand to hand’ blocks of instruction. A lot of life saving practical information was given. I thoroughly enjoyed them all, learned a hell of a lot, and have had a hell of a lot of fun. There are tons of excellent instructors in the Training Forums, and from other members recommendations on M4C. Too bad they are all not located or train in FL or the SE. I would have loved to taken them all.

The most important thing is to not close your mind off to new and different instruction and have a sense of humor. Don’t be so arrogant that you won’t let the instruction sink in or won’t take friendly advice from fellow class mates. Check out every ones gear, ask questions, take notes. See what works for you.

8

Wow thank you for writing that out. Your right about trying to fill the masses with limited knowledge its hard enough getting a squad in shape, I never really thought about it that way.

9

Im without a doubt sure that many people can out shoot me. Anyone who thinks their Military supplied shooting skills are all they’ll ever need are greatly mislead.

I guess ive been misinterpreting their intent when I read comments like that. In reality im new to a civilian shooting community outside of hunting and just shooting what ever I was allowed to as a kid.

Im under the impression that a lot of classes are tactics based with a large emphasis on marksmanship. How does that transfer to a civilian trainer? Does anyone have any hesitations about that?

10

Im glad both of you shared a similar experience. Although ive always known id learn something, I just wasn’t sure if it would go against the grain so to speak.

I would love to get some pistol courses in, But in NY it hard enough just to get a pistol permit let alone find a class.

Cant wait for NC

11

I’m someone who has pursued training on my own dime for over 10 years. During that time I’ve been to Astan with the military. Everything I learned/fine tuned/practiced in those classes has been directly applicable to the world of the grunt.

Think about it this way, the military teaches skills to the lowest common denominator (outside of SMU, etc.). They expect you to rely on your squad/platoon, etc. to get the job done. I view the civilian training (much of it by former .mil and or LEO) as higher level learning (ie. high school vs. university)

Find good training with good instructors and you will not be disappointed. It is money well spent. As far as your friend, tell him to put his $ where his mouth is and try a class. It will be an eye opener.

Lastly look around, we have some good trainers coming to NY, Jason Falla being one.

12

I’ll support the general sentiment here and add a few things.

First, civilian schools do a much better job of training individual skills such as weapons manipulation and marksmanship than the military does for the average combat arms MOS soldier.

Civilians with no military experience who have attended multiple carbine classes are going to perform better on the range and in competitions than the average Infantrymen.

It’s a matter of focus and priority. Let’s look at a 3 gun competitor. He or she has 3 things to focus on. Put simply…to be fast and accurate with a rifle, pistol, and shotgun.

Now compare that 3 gun competitor to an Infantry Soldier or Marine. Here’s just a random list of just some of the things an AVERAGE Infantrymen knows and is good at:

  • First Aid / CPR
  • Calling for Indirect Fire (this implies a detailed knowledge of
    capabilities for a variety of IDF platforms)
  • Conducting MEDEVAC / CASEVAC both air and ground.
  • Maintaining / operating a variety of combat vehicles.
  • Map reading / Land Navigation.
  • How to operate and maintain a variety of communications
    platforms.
  • How to react to a Nuclear, Biological, or Chemical attack.
  • How to give a variety of reports (SALTUR, SPOT, etc.)
  • Setting up a CROW turret.
  • Operating a TOW, ITAS, LRAS, etc.
  • Identifying enemy equipment / uniforms.
  • Field Sanitation procedures.
  • Cultural Training (how to interact with foreign nationals)
  • Afghan / Iraqi Army rank structure and TTP’s
  • ETC ETC ETC I could make this list 10 pages long.

See what I’m getting at? That 3 gun shooter will outshoot that soldier every day of the week. But ask him to lead a squad in Afghanistan and he is going to fail miserably.

So, the key takeaways here are:

  • If you’re in a military unit that doesn’t have the budget, resources, or will to provide “carbine class” style training to you, seek it out on your own. It’s worth it.

  • If you are a Soldier, Marine, Sailor, whatever…and think that your military training alone makes you an “expert” with an AR15 you are likely wrong and have much to learn.

  • If you are a civilian who thinks that just because you can outshoot the soldier next to you that you are a more proficient “warfighter,” you don’t know the first thing about fighting a war and the vast amount of knowledge / skill it requires outside of shooting alone.

13

Extremely well put. :dirol:

Taking an 18 year old kid and turning him into a warfighter in 6 months or so requires a balancing act of what to train on. This and F2S’s post #2 really hit home and verge on sticky material in my mind. “Combat Veterans: read this first”

14

Well said. As a former knuckle-dragger myself, I took great offense to the “dumb grunt” label that was often applied to us. I really appreciated your original question, and how you asked it.

Jsop, I used to feel much as you mentioned. I was an 0331, and a squad leader. I have learned that there is much difference between the employment of weapons systems at the fire team and squad level, and the skill with a particular weapon.

And think how much better you can train your Marines! If I were still carrying a musket and a cutlass, I’d be thrilled to death to take a class from Failure2Stop, and pass that instruction onto my Lance Criminals.

After all, the guy wrote the book - the new one, that is. :smiley:

15

Yea I contacted him about his class. Im still waiting on my permit, who knows when that will come threw. Its been a good while since I had any extended time behind a pistol so I may be on a huge time crunch that im not willing to slow a class down on my behalf for. My first class will actually be a basic Carbine course, and I was apprehensive about that at first but its cheap $200 and I think ill learn a good few things. Cant hurt.

Many good points there. I didnt want to quote the whole thing again but you addressed a lot of questions.

When you said “Civilian schools” do you mean taught by civilians or schools for civilians? If you mean the later I completely agree. I was taught in infantry school the magwell hold is THE BEST way to hold any M16 M4…

16

I was thinking this^
Someone told me once " A good leader always strives to be better than the ones he followed"

Failure2Stop Where do you teach out of? You seem like a no BS guy.

17

PM outbound.

18

To be fair, he did leave out

-Floor buffer races
-scrubbing the finish off the guts of new M4s with Simple Green and 3M green pads because the armorer insists they aren’t CLEAN, knowing this is a no-win argument and you’re tired and just want to get the fuck out of the barracks for the night, so you just do it
-Camouflage and reflective belts. Simultaneously.
-Racist minority staff NCOs
-Leadership ability can be directly measured by run times
-Taking three weeks to learn something a respectable civilian school teaches in a day

and a host of other stuff not having a thing to do with the ultimate goal, which is locating, closing with, and destroying the enemy.

:smiley:

19

JSOP, something to keep in mind as I’m not sure this has been clarified, the only training courses blessed off by this community, while open to civilians, are NOT taught by “civilians”. Look at the backgrounds of the guys teaching the courses worth going too and you will be more than convinced they have something to teach you. They have all put in their time on the two way range and most started their instructor careers in the military training high speed types or in very large city SWAT units.

Nobody is going to recommend some bullshit class by a 25 year old with a shitty goatee (some one please post that picture) who has no operational experience, know what I mean?

20

Stop listening to the pal that thinks he already knows everything he will ever need to know. It’s truly odd for him to have his attitude after having come from the military, gotten away from the single-source training cycle, experienced somebody else’s vetting/train-up process, and still think that single-source training with NO realistic sustainment is the right answer.

He’s either extraordinarily stubborn or has a learning disability. Either way, I’d cock an eyebrow about anything he has to say in regard to training, and bounce it off of some other, disinterested party before taking it to heart.

Since the dawn of time, precisely ZERO people have fast-roped down their mom’s unbilical cord knowing everything they need to know. They have to be taught, and that knowledge has to be periodically sustained, and doing it from only one source is limiting…not purifying.