Last week and I watched a group of people train in a competition on a range that included shooting on the move, barriers, and shooting from cover. It was obviously timed.
I noticed a couple things as I was just a bystander and had time to people watch.
The civilians were more concerned with getting a good time and running through the course as quickly and as macho as possible. But the military and law enforcement guys seemed to take better advantage of cover and took their time making sure the threat was “down” before leaving the barrier. They seemed more concerned with shooting at the target where as the civilians were more concerned with hurrying through the course. This has nothing to do with accuracy. I’m not saying that the civilians were less accurate merely that they spent less time engaging targets and using cover effectively.
These were pretty well established civilians and it wasn’t their first rodeo. What got me is that they all claimed to be doing it for a shtf situation and not for the sheer fun or competition of it.
If they said they wanted to compete it would make sense. But they said they wanted actual tactical training and then bust through the course like they’ve never been shot at (because they haven’t)
Has anyone else noticed anything similar from “career civilian shooters” as opposed to guys who have or will actually have to employ their weapons?
Checkpoints to holster. Most mil or LEO will do it where as the civilians usually just immediately re holster after the course is done/ finished shooting.
Civilian here, so I was hoping that you could elaborate on “checkpoints to holster” and what that means in practical terms. I hate to sound stupid, but I’m preparing for my first training course and have never come across that term.
As an aside, I really never considered competing. My goal (as a civilian) is simply competency, or in my case, the long chase after competency.
this is all I could find. It is basically several steps scanning for additional threats. Step one, weapon to high search and scan left to right. Step two, bring weapon in to chest line, scan left to right to rear making sure you have seen everything in a 360 degree radius. Step three, re-holster. Of course if any threat is observed you reassess and engage if necessary. Not the only way but thats how I do it.
Bingo! This is why I am generally against “gun games” as they teach the shooter to pay attention to the clock VS paying attention to their cover.
.Mil and LE know that when clearing a room, they have “all the time in the world.” So going fast is of no advantage to them. Getting good hits and using cover to your max benefit is what it is about.
This sounds a lot to me like viewing the world through your own lens, looking for certain outcomes based on preconceived notions, and trying to justify one’s own way of doing things, but ignoring all that I’ll play…
If the instructor is using a timer, then time is an issue. If that is the case, ignoring time is “doing it wrong”. Period.
We had a competition stage years ago wherein we set a scenario that you arrived home from the range to a door ajar, a strange car in the driveway, and sounds of your wife screaming inside. We can argue the tactical validity of whether or not charging in was the right thing in some other thread, for the purposes of this stage it was determined that whatever would trigger you to move in had been triggered.
When guys burst in through the front door, cleared the room, and then took their sweet-ass time getting through the rest, I hollered out in a fallsetto voice “daddy! daddy! hurry! He’s TOUCHING me!” (which, we got complaints about) to induce the shooter to hurry up.
the point here is that time may or may not be an issue in the real world. If it is part of the scenario, then you can’t simply ignore it because you’re doing it “tactically correct”.
I also find that the vast majority of those that eschew competition shooting with various excuses simply don’t do well or are afraid of having quantifiable numbers by which they might be judged in an environment they have no control over.
Without knowing the purpose of the class, the instructor, the drills, the reason for the timer being used, etc. it’s almost impossible to form a valid judgement on anything that was seen, especially when relayed third-hand through someone else’s lens.
Time may, or may not, be a factor in the real world (whatever the hell that is:) If a LEO is clearing a building, time may not be that much of a factor. If, OTOH, he is dealing with an active shooter situation - then time is a major factor in the total equation.
I have had several respected instructors tell me (I am a civi, btw) that LEOs fall into two VERY distinct groups! Some HAVE to be there and are often not “weapon-centered” individuals. They are on a different planet than those who WANT to be there (and are often paying their own way).
I have been looking for quite some time for documented cases of competition-induced “training scars” that resulted in less than ideal outcomes. If anyone has any I would greatly appreciate the links or documents.
In regards to an actual shooting incident, I don’t know of any and or pay attention to the news enough to know.
In regards to force on force training, big competition shooters do not do defensive clears well and typically get eaten alive as they stand in doorways, stand in the middle of rooms and do not use cover well.
I would have to imagine that all of these mistakes on the square range would be the same in the real world (as you are what you practice).
I won’t delve into what may or may not be tactically appropriate, because I have no clue. But I think the point is that in this particular given drill, time WAS an issue for the simple fact that there was a timer. If the purpose of the drill was to ensure that your bad guy is adequately serviced and scanning the area totally before and after movement, then the drill was set up wrong and shouldn’t have involved a timer.
There are instructors that run certain courses of fire without timers for the reasons listed above, and other drills on the timer, for others.
In the classes I’ve attended in the last 5-7 years, I’ve trained with many LE guys of all stripes and levels of governments and differing countries. None of them were required to be at the classes I attended.
I dont recall them being significantly better or any worse than any other average student with a few exceptions. Most were there to learn and acted like any other person with a desire to learn. I did take away a few skills from a a few of them but I also imparted a few skills to a few of them.
perhaps I am looking at it thru a civilians perspective using wishful thinking that “cops are just like the rest of us” but I think it’s about a net zero result from my experience. people are people when they are in the learning process. i can tell when a person has matured in their experience and has a solid foundation of skills tho.
I would love to see something like this in order to fight complacently. While it is not shooting related per say, I remember about 8 years ago I was reading black belt magazine iirc, about an officer disarming a gun from a suspect. The officer took the gun away only to hand it back immediately afterward because in training after taking the gun away, the scenario was over and he would give the gun back in order to do it again. I’m not sure where the original source of the article came from but it either way it is a good reminder to train how you fight.
Tactical Ted with 25 training classes in a certain methodology taking class #26 of room clearing under the same instructor with scenarios based on making the established methodology seem effective vs. a guy that’s a USPSA Grand Master but never been instructed in the pre-determined methodology? Or any “room clearing” technique at all?
Reverse things and put Tactical Ted in the USPSA match with zero prior experience. Outcome is reversed.
Agree. Couple that with with the fact the news media would NEVER list something like; “Victim” was into gun games and stood in the middle of the doorway to “duel it out.”
Point being is that if you follow proper technique in room clearing, you have a higher probability of surviving VS someone that doesn’t know the right way to do it AND practices standing in the middle of rooms or doorways when they engage bad guys.
Its kind of like, “you are what you eat.” If you eat junk food all the time then that is what your body looks like (at least inside). If you practice to WIN gun games (meaning give up cover to beat the timer), this will have a negative outcome for you IMHO.
I know of a few guys that shoot and win in competition, that still have very sound tactics and know how to keep the two separate.
That’s like suggesting that practicing a slow, perfect draw in dry fire practice hurts your fast draw when it counts.
I think intelligent people are capable of differentiating between when to follow rules and sprint around in competition, and when it’s time to use tactics to shoot someone before they try to do the same to them.
Paul Tobias, Scott Warren, Bennie Cooley & Kyle Lamb come to mind.