Chest rigs, Slings and reloading

Training Training and Tactics
1

Recently went to the Eagle M4 chest rig as seen here: http://www.eagleindustries.com/prd_detail.asp?ProdID=118&CatID=22&SubCatID=22

It’s very high quality as is all of the Eagle gear I have owned, but after playing with it, and using it in training along with a Blue Force Gear Vickers sling, I really am wrestling with some facts…especially revolving around reloading with this gear on.

It is very apparent while wearing a chest rig, and Tactical type sling that getting to the mags for a reload while maneuvering around the sling is very cumbersome. Same applies to vests that have the Mags. in the front.

No matter how I try, there is very little room between the sling, and mag pouch to get your hand in there to secure the “Same secure grip” every time. In a high stress situation, I would think this would be even more complicated.

I recently watched (again) Clint Smith demonstrating reloading using a 2 point sling that he keeps secured with his weak hand against the forend with his weak hand, and reloading from his left hip pocket, much the same as it would be from a belt Mag pouch. It is effortless! The sling doesn’t get in the way, and the mag comes out of his pocket like butter. I remember doing .6 second “Speed Reloads” in my competitive 1911 days, and it reminded me of this.

Here are some thoughts, realizations, and things to ponder…

I realize that the “Pocket” is maybe not the best place to keep a spare Mag, IF you’re ready for an encounter, but I do believe that a belt pouch would be very similar as far as ease of access. I love my Blade Tech Kydex single Mag belt pouch for this reason.

The belt pouch may get in the way of a Dump Pouch, but what’s more important?

For full military engagements, I understand the need for multiple spare Mags.

Is a “Tactical Sling” mount the best way to go when you can do (with a 2 point sling mounted fore and aft) a Muzzle Up strong side carry, a Muzzle Down weak side carry, or extend the 2 point sling to have a "Tactical Carry " option (sling over the top of the strong shoulder and under the weak arm) IF…the darn sling doesn’t interfere with operating the weapon??? This includes effective charging handle manipulation, which although doable with a tactical sling, it’s sure a lot easier without any sling at all in the way.

So, those are my toughts, and I’d love to hear yours.

Always in search of the “Holy Grail”!

Tack

2

Todd,
I use the same set up that you have. The VCAS and the Eagle M4 Chest rig.
Thw role I see using this set up is for our Carbine matches, and at work if I have to deploy my Carbine I grab the Chest rig and throw it over my head. I am in LE. I have two HG mags on the chest rig also.

I have a Paddle type Kydex mag pouch for the Carbine that I can throw on too, but more to the 8:00 position. I have found reloading from the mag pouch is much faster than the Chest rig for me. I then back fill the belt mag pouch from the right most chest rig pouch when time permits.

I run the VCAS at the front sight Base swivel and the rear of the stock. I am Right handed and the sling goes over my right shoulder and under my left arm, this aids in transition to the pistol. Someone just posted that Mr. Vickers said to put the sling at the tightest point in a t-shirt and then you can loosen it up when more gear comes into play. I pretty much did the same thing…

I am considering mounting a rail swivel back near the Delta Ring and see how I like that, if it helps or not. Again I saw this on Mr. Vicker’s 416 from his recent class hosted by LMS.

I am not sure if what I wrote helps you or not, but at least someone else feels your pain. I think that everything is a compromise you just have to figure out what is best for you…
Stay safe
Jack

3

I too mount the rear of the sling at the receiver plate. I mount the front end just ahead of the receiver. Thinking that maybe mounting the ends further away would add some extra room to play with in the “Work Space”. Just a thought. I agree that there is a need to compromise.

Tack

Tack

4

Another shooter with the same gear here.

I attach my two-point to the rail near the barrel nut using an MI swivel that moves fore and aft only, and to the toe/rear of the stock using a QD swivel.

I also have Magpul Ranger plates on all my mags. This makes all the difference in the world to me in terms of how I extract the fresh mag and insert it into the gun. I do not notice the sling at all.

With that said, I am adding a single belt pouch to my setup, and I will use that for speed loads, with the chest rig reserved for feeding that pouch and/or admin loads.

Gratuitous pics of guns & gear follow:

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Rob…

I’m going out today to play with mounting the sling to the rear instead of at the back of the receiver to see if it opens up the “Work Space” a little.

Question…Are you going over the top, or under the sling to extract the fresh Mag from your pouch? I have been going over the top to extract, and under to insert. It’s going for the fresh Mag that I encounter a “Tight Space”.

I also see that you got the buckle on the left side of your chest rig. I know this was an issue for you on complicating your pistol draw. Mine came with the buckle on the weak side so I didn’t have to mess with alterations. Then again…didn’t I see that you had your original chest rig for sale? Did you get a replacement, or did you alter it.?

In looking at your Pics., I notice that your light is quite aways ahead of where your weak thumb would be to activate it while maintaining a grip on your VFG. Any comments?

Tack

6

Without the chest rig on and the rifle in hand, I honestly don’t know. I think that the sling stays to the right, and I grab the mags from the left side of the sling, but I’ll have to suit up to check.:smiley:

I also see that you got the buckle on the left side of your chest rig. I know this was an issue for you on complicating your pistol draw. Mine came with the buckle on the weak side so I didn’t have to mess with alterations. Then again…didn’t I see that you had your original chest rig for sale? Did you get a replacement, or did you alter it.?

It wound up coming this way. The rig pictured is the new version with only one buckle. Protoype pics I had seen showed the buckle on the other side, but the production model I received has the buckle in the “right” place.

In looking at your Pics., I notice that your light is quite aways ahead of where your weak thumb would be to hit it while maintaining a grip on your VFG. Any comments?

It seems to work for me. With the stubby grip it keeps my hand high, and my thumb is long enough to reach just fine.

7

You can say that again. I’ve given up and just went to old fashioned deuce gear.

I added a couple of fastex subloads for extra mags and a thigh holster, and that’s it.

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I am very happy in that I have finally settled on the stripped-down chest rig as pictured and one belt mag. It’s one of those things, kind of like the two carbines pictured, that once you get to that Nirvana you kind of hear the angels sing. :cool:

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[QUOTE=rob_s;92326]Without the chest rig on and the rifle in hand, I honestly don’t know. I think that the sling stays to the right, and I grab the mags from the left side of the sling, but I’ll have to suit up to check.:smiley:

QUOTE]

The following is all theory until I play with it some more, but I wanted to clarify my thoughts.

In this setup, the sling is pretty much directly to the left of the first mag on the left side of the pouch…and very close to it, especially if you don’t lower the “Work Space” more than usual (which I need to experiment with) because it would take the sling down low enough to not get in the way of a proper grasp on the fresh Mag. This extraction would be done over the top of the sling.

After Mag extraction, the rifle would be raised up to promote insertion of the new Mag…under the sling. Note: I’m a strong guy, but raising a 8# rifle with only the strong hand to the shoulder gets tiring after 10 times or so. I’d prefer to keep the rifle touching the pocket of my shoulder for better balance and control, and “Pivoting” from my shoulder back up into the firing position, versus “Lifting” it back up.

By trying to lower the rifle below the mag pouch, it may take some loosening of the Vickers sling length to accomplish clearing the way for the “Snatch” from the pouch…which I really don’t want to do. Note: I am trying to grasp the fresh Mag. with a “Beer Can Grip”. I like my ranger Plates, but don’t like the fact that the Mag. is less stable in my hand using them to hold on to, versus having a secure hold on them.

At least that’s what I am thinking without the rig on. It’s all theory at this point.

Lot to practice and play with.

Tack

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Which ultimately is going to be the key.

Frankly, I don’t know how I’d do it without the Ranger plates. I just stick my social-finger in the loop of the Magpul and pull it out, turning it to get a “cupped” grip on the bottom. I like this because I can push-pull with the heel of my hand and my fingers on the Ranger Plate (respectively) without shifting my grip.

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I hear you on inserting the “Social Finger” into the Ranger Plate loop, but that’s a little tight with gloves on. If it weren’t for that, I would, and do use that technique as well along with using my “Pinky” inserted into the expended Mag. to pull it out of the weapon before inserting the fresh Mag. while doing a Tactical reload. I just let it hang from the “Pinky” until I can take the time to put the expended Mag. in the Dump pouch. This again without gloves.

Tack

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Yeah, I gave up on gloves. For my purposes (non-LE civilian) I have no use for the gloves, although I tried them a few times just to see if I was missing anything. What I wound up missing was my target, 'cause I couldn’t feel my trigger like I was used to! :eek:

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It’s all about trigger control isn’t it? I cut the index finger pad section out of my gloves. Maybe I should consider cutting the “Social Finger”, and “Pinky Finger” out as well. Many just use the fingerless gloves for these reasons. Something to consider when you’re doing a face plant on gravel to go to prone. :slight_smile:

14

First, let me say that I have felt your pain… and in some cases continue to feel your pain. Over the past few years, I have been running a single point sling attached to the rifle by way of a sling plate. It’s great for working in and around vehicles, buildings, etc. However, a single point sucks when it comes to having to cover ground… like several miles. That is where a two point, for me, has worked best.

I recently attended a Bennie Cooley class in Casa Grande, AZ. For those of you who do not know him, Mr. Cooley is a current serving SWAT officer for a three letter fed agency. His team has won several national SWAT challenges, he has won USPSA 3 gun matches, etc. Therefore, I figured there was something to learn from him and I was right.
For his class I was running my AR with the HK style sling plate adapter with the HK style snap link. The front attachment was a quick detach mounted directly to my rail. Cooley has you do allot of strong and weak side shooting drills. When I had the sling around my neck, and say, my weak side…when I shot strong side I was fine…as soon as I switched to weak side shooting, I would choke myself with the sling…figuratively speaking. Solution… when you get on line… just loop the sling over your neck. That solved that issue.
Next issue was that HK style snap link would bind, and sometimes the sling would be over top of the stock and it was a mess. I was thinking to myself and I said, “Self, there has to be a better way”. I then saw pictures of the Larry Vickers class that LMS Defense hosted in California (www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=8714) and saw the way that Mr. Vickers had the VTAC sling mounted to his Magpul CTR stock. I took off the HK style snap thing and attached it the same way… it seems work like a charm. I have had some time to practice the strong side/weak side shooting that we did at the Cooley class and this sling set up that Mr. Vickers had seems to be the answer for me.

Might want to check it out.

Hopefully this was helpful to some extent.

Y-

15

I’m running the Vickers sling as well, just not attached to the rear of the stock…yet. Trying it today.

One problem with this mounting method is that transitioning to the weak shoulder is much slower. You have to release the sling tension (given that the sling is properly “snugged Up” in the firing position), drop your weak shoulder out and then make the move. It’s Ok to do this “On the Firing Line” but probably a little slow for CQB applications. I guess passing the sling over your head is an option…unless you drop the rifle.

It’s always something!

Tack

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I guess passing the sling over your head is an option…unless you drop the rifle.

What do you mean?

17

Taking your strong hand and lifting the sling up and over your head to get out of it before transitioning to the weak shoulder. It works, but again if you need to drop the weapon to go to the side arm or inadvertently drop it…you’ve just lost your primary weapon.

Tack

18

Just loop the sling over your head.
That way, you can change strong site/weak side… and you won’t ‘loose’ you weapon… unless, you loose your head.

Y-

19

I think cutting the fingers off the glove, defeats the purpose of the gloves. The most important part to protect for shooting, is the trigger finger.
I have no choice, and the nomex gloves can’t have a hole in it, much less have the fingers cut off, you can shoot pretty good with gloves on, you just have to practice, and choose your gloves and fit wisely.

I run my VCAS at the front of the forearm, and the rear of the stock, just keep playing witht eh adjustment point to find the sweet spot, I’ve never had aproblem accessing mags. A trick is to tuck the stock under your armpit, witht he muzzle elevated, takes the weight off your arms, and makes room to access mags.

Transitioning to the weak side, most likely you will have the time to adjust the sling, and switch shoulders. I’m not big on that, and pie my corners witht eh gun on the strong side. If your switching to use cover better, again, you should ahve the seond or two to adjust, afterall your behind cover.
JM2C
Yancey, what 3 letters could those be;)

Bob

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Just My 2 Cents?