Wow… was trying to post in earlier thread… which appeared to have derailed fast due to multiple parties and the 2d medium of communication.
Let me firstly state I have no monetary or other stake in Chattahoochee Gun Works.
Secondly, I have previously met the owner (an ARSOF veteran) a few times and came away with an impression of a good guy with integrity. He certainly is a gas-gun aficionado and we discussed much about smallarms, outside of the military activities in which we were involved. It’s neat to see he started what he talked about doing.
In the snapshot of perusing that webpage, it’s clear quality components were sourced. Not some of the ridiculously shady “milspec” BS, we’ve all seen/heard at gunshows.
And for you bandwagon bandits… HPT/MPI… mindless regurgitation types… great. If you don’t know what your looking for, what Q’s to ask, or lack of confidence in the manufacturer, are entry level individual into getting an AR… by all means require the baseline proofs the mil does to ensure their rifles won’t blow up on the 1st trigger pull. Your ensuring you don’t get an utter POS, not that your getting the best performance or life.
For example, Conventional Army requires HPT/MPI on the KAC M110 bolts, which only last about 4-5K. SOCOM, realizing the destructive nature of the HPT “stress test”, and that QUALITY modern manufacturing methods do not require proof methods devised hundreds of yrs ago… does not have this test on their MK11/M110KA1 variants… and the bolts last 10-11K… at least. By that time you just change barrel and bolt.
New businesses are tough. Figuring out how to communicate for a broad and fickle audience on the www has got to be a pain. I would not immediately discount this start up as ill-intentioned shady douches. From my perspective, an enthusiast giving his dream business a whirl.
First let me say that I am NOT a fan of HPT. There much better ways to ensure the quality of the bolt. One of my favorite ways would be to X-ray the steel PRIOR to it being made into bolts. This would ensure that the steel being used was good thusly saving money (as you wouldn’t have wasted time machining it).
I do agree that if you buy a quality bolt from a quality manufacturer, the need to HPT/MPI really doesn’t exist. Where we get into a problem is when other companies (that don’t make a quality bolt) sell them without the checks and you get things like below.
So at this point, I think that HPT/MPI forces companies to put more effort into their product thusly producing a better bolt which ensures that the end user gets a quality made product.
I think where the major problem happens for the consumer is that they get stuck trying to figure out whom to trust. Do I trust company XYZ that says that they buy a quality made bolt, but does not HPT and only batch MPI’s or do I trust company ABC that says that they do HPT and MPI, but buy bolts from a less quality company than company XYZ does?
With all the smoke and mirrors that some of these manufacturers pull, it is damn hard to figure out which company does in fact buy quality and which ones do not.
For me personally, I like bolts made by a certain manufacturer (that does not sell to the public). They batch MPI and that is it. We have used them for years in our personal guns with great success. If I came on the forum and said that these are well made bolts, but not HPT/MPI’d, I would get some people to trust me and buy them. Others though would not. I have about 100 of these bolts and am about to sell them. I wonder how many will trust me and how many will throw me under the bus.
It’s good of you to come out for the guy. Sounds like he’s an acquaintance than a friend, so it’s really nice and good information for the rest of us.
Starting a new business is very difficult, but you have to be able to communicate with your customers or prospective customers. I read the posts by the company rep in the previous thread. He may have the best of intentions, but it doesn’t come off that way. IMHO, his first post comes off as being a bit arrogant. Now, it’s very hard to read those things over the internet, but it just comes off that way to me and if I’m seeing that, I doubt I’m the only one. I did marketing for five years for a pretty decent size company and there are things you want to say or imply, but shouldn’t. He could have said everything he said with a softer approach. Again, if your the company owner, you want people to buy your product instead of product X. The consumer can go elsewhere if he pleases. Especially in firearms. I can name five companies off the top of my head that I can spend my money with that are not Chattahoochie. Approach can be everything in marketing. Just my opinion and advice for a business owner who is honestly trying to do the best he can do.
HPT and MPI have merit, and can guarantee a certain level of quality in a product, but aren’t required to getting a good bolt. A good bolt is a good bolt, even before it is HPT/MPI’d. HPT/MPI can help to verify that the bolt is indeed structurally sound, but companies who are reputable (use good sources for their materials, test the materials, and manufacture correctly with good QC) should have no problem passing HPT/MPI on most, if not all, of their bolts.
Jinks, Dano standing behind this company changes a few things and I don’t think this thread can simply start where it left off in the last one.
And this is the whole issue. Looking at it from a consumer’s point of view, I know that not HPT/MPI’ing bolts shows a lack of quality solely because thats what cheap commercial manufacturers tend to refuse to do when building rifles. It has nothing to do with the actual process for me. I put more faith in a company that does it because it shows that they put more effort into what they sell.
When a random company comes on this forum and says that they sell to the military and law enforcement and make a quality product and then say “its none of your business who we sell it to” that puts a bad taste in my mouth.
Of course Dano’s statement changes all that, but I will continue to be a skeptic of until a company is proven otherwise. Too many nutcases out there with a machine shop claiming to provide rifles to Delta Force for me to not be one. (This does not apply to CGW)
I would like clarification on whether or not they have military contracts or are just selling individual rifles to servicemen. They certainly seem to be claiming the former. As JSantor said, that’s not hard to clarify.
I can understand that “a good bolt is a good bolt” and if it’s made with the right materials and right way it should nearly always pass the MPI test, it still doesn’t mean that it’s 100% of the time. That’s where the 0.1% comes in.
This logic of because who a mfg. is determines on if their bolts need any testing makes NO sense to me. If I am going to trust my life to something, I want it tested to its proper potential to ensure it’s durability and quality.
LOL, HPT is basically like running a motorcycle into a wall.
When you buy a bolt that was HPT/MPI from a company like BCM, Colt you KNOW that you are getting a quality made bolt. So it is a good tool to judge the quality of the bolt itself.
Read the linked thread in its entirety. According to rsilvers, the percentage of HPT/MPI failures on bolts manufactured properly is mentioned as far less than 0.1%.
HPT is a destructive test. It will shorten the life of the bolt. I believe this is accepted as fact.
Don’t get me wrong, I own bolts made my DD, BCM, and LMT and all of them are HPT/MPI’d. I made sure I purchased them that way because I wanted the extra assurance.
I linked you the thread so you can understand the WHY. When people in the know like Dano and Grant say something, it’s important to understand why and refrain from being one of the “mindless regurgitation types” (quoted from Dano).
I’m not saying I don’t believe you or Grant, not do I not understand what HPT does. But when what you have read and understood as being a necessary thing for years to suddenly be claimed as not needed, you get a bit confused.
I will probably continue to purchase HPT/MPI’d bolts from reputable sources like DD, BCM, and LMT because I don’t have the lead on what is good versus not good.
But the benefits of having the knowledge, and understanding the concepts, is that one can eventually make the decisions/judgements for oneself.
To make my point as clear as possible, think of HPT/MPI as a validation that the bolt was made by a quality company (as no one goes through the PITA to HPT/MPI a cheap/poorly made bolt).
What we are saying here is that HPT does NOT do the bolt ANY FAVORS in regards to its longevity, but at this point it is the best option we have (until someone starts X-raying bolts).
Since it appears that the x-ray process would be less expensive why has this method not been adopted? You’d think manufacturers would be exploring any method to cut overhead and production costs.
Or perhaps its a question of the imagery not being adiquate.
Even MPI can require a microscope at times, and that for sure isn’t the resolution offered by X-rays.
There’s also the question of materials. Not type, but size.
Rod stock comes in pieces up to 20 feet long IIRC, and it would consume a massive amount fo time to have someone look at even one from one end to the other and mark or cut out ‘bad’ sections so they don’t make it to production.
Then there’s stresses induced by the machining processes proper, both molecular and mechanical.
Run low on coolant while producing and you might change temper or cause a tool to be blunted which in turn makes microscopic scars on a part.
And given that cracks start at sharp edges, it would be difficult to take a blank rod and through x-rays determine that it wouldn’t fail at a to be machined later but currently unknown location of the stock after an edge or scrape had been cut into it somewhere.
In the case of bolts, several somewheres.
Perhaps.
Or even post-production, but I’m still of a mind the resolution wouldn’t be adiquate.
Ideally one would just eliminate the HP part and then MPI or x-ray as then it would be inspecting but not super stressing.
From a production standpoint I doubt the blanks are individually cut down them machined into bolts.
Its just not efficient.
More likely the rod stock goes into a multi-tooled multi-chuck machine fed from the back end by X number of ‘cylinders’ in a revolving feeder and as things cycle the rod feeds in and after one full rotation of the machine, a mostly finished bolt drops out.
For example this machine can hold 6 rods, auto feed them and do 9 or 10 different machine turning operations in one full cycle and produce upwards of a couple thousand parts in a single 8 hour shift depending on what’s actually being produced. Completely mechanical with no CNC or computer stuff. Just a guy to stand there and make sure the feed system stays full.
