For each scenario assume you are mostly safe and can move without undue risk to areas of greater safety. You are not with friends or family or anyone who you have a higher priority of protective responsibility.
You have a vantage point that allows you to see all individuals involved and can reasonably determine no other individuals are involved. You also have the opportunity and means to approach those who seem to be the “bad guys” with a reasonable amount of safety and you can place yourself in a better position to fire upon them than the individuals who are currently being fired upon.
That said, there is every reason to expect that you will be fired upon by moving towards the incident, especially if you fire your weapon.
Assume you have your usual carry gun and any spare magazines you regularly carry. If you have a trunk gun, assume you have access to that weapon and magazines as well.
Come to the aid of a police officer in distress. Assume a uniformed police officer is being fired upon by an attacker or attackers and is either at an extreme disadvantage or has already been hit. Would you attempt to intervene by engaging the attackers with your firearm?
In this case you have a more than reasonable assumption of right and wrong and can safely assume anyone shooting at a uniformed police officer is a bad guy. You run some risk of being mistaken for “another” bad guy by responding officers and witnesses who may confuse your actions and may only see a “man with gun.”
Come to the aid of an armed individual in distress. Assume a single armed individual is being fired upon by an attacker or attackers and is either at an extreme disadvantage or has already been hit. Would you attempt to intervene by engaging the attackers with your firearm?
In this case determination of right and wrong can prove very difficult and you may mistake an innocent defender as an aggressor or “bad guy.” You also run some risk of being mistaken for “another” bad guy by responding officers and witnesses who may confuse your actions and may only see a “man with gun.”
Come to the aid of an unarmed individual in distress. Assume a single unarmed individual is being fired upon by an attacker or attackers and is either at an extreme disadvantage or has already been hit. Would you attempt to intervene by engaging the attackers with your firearm?
In this case assumption of right and wrong is a little easier but still can prove very difficult and you may mistake an innocent defender who is armed as an aggressor or “bad guy” and the unarmed individual could prove to be the actual “bad guy.” You also run some risk of being mistaken for “another” bad guy by responding officers and witnesses who may confuse your actions and may only see a “man with gun.”
You can choose more than one poll answer if they apply.
Kind of falls into the “Be sure of your target” rule. If you don’t know who the threat is… how can you engage? Just because one person is shooting at another and has the advantage, doesn’t mean they are the bad guy. Could be an under cover officer. Could be an act of self defense where the victim has acquired the upper hand.
And I did cover the fact that it would be hard to determine who is who in the other options, but that doesn’t mean somebody wouldn’t still intervene.
Obviously the first scenario has the best probability of determining the bad guys from the good guys. But I have heard a lot of CCW guys say they couldn’t just stand there and watch something like the third scenario.
Of course a lot of the guys who claim they would do this or that probably don’t consider that they might misidentify the bad guys or misjudge the situation they are seeing. Of course police officers have to deal with the same dilemma on occasion and if there is still shooting going on when they arrive they have to make the same kind of choices with the same kind of information.
So basically I’m asking people what they believe (or hope) they might do in any of the given situations.
But at the same time, some people might not be able to stand there and not attempt to intervene.
There is no easy obvious answer.
On one hand you could end up taking on a plain clothes cop who is chasing after somebody who just killed three people. On the other hand if you do nothing you could come to learn that you just saw an innocent person get murdered and you “could” have possibly prevented it.
I’m not a CCW holder, but I do have a loaded firearm on my person carried openly a majority of the time I am in public.
I voted for option #1 only. However, if I had observed the scenario unfold and could determine who, if anyone, was in the right given options #2 and #3, I might intervene… but that’s going to depend a whole lot on the details of that specific instance. I think chances are I would not intervene.
Several years back when I lived in WA state I was put into a scenario as depicted. The person was a friend of my brothers and he was getting tore up by a guy with a Spyderco Police model.
I just so happened to walk into the situation (in front of 7-11) and when he saw me he immediately told me to draw my gun and help him. However, I had been watching the situation for a couple of minutes as I was trying to determine if that person was indeed someone I recognized. I also saw that he not only continued to antagonize the person with the knife, but he made no attempts to get away even after being cut!
Had I entered the scene late and then simply taken his word for it, then I could have made a serious mistake.
I ended up calling 911 and acting as a witness which was the best course of action. I hope that in the future should I be involved in some crazy scenario again my past experience and training will guide me.
I think that SA has given us more information that most people would be able to ascertain at a quick glance. I’ve been mugged at gun point and I was fairly aware of the situation , but when I see people’s video’s of a shooting, it seems you’re lucky if you can tell where the shots and players are. He’s given that you actually have identified all the players and what the risks are and who is armed, hell that’s not a gun fight, that’s an IDPA match.
Of all the variables, SA left out the most important- how hot is the victim
All in all, it seems walking, uninvited, to someone elses gun fight seems a bit rude, and a good way to get shot by everyone. Maybe scenario 1 where the cop v. 1 bad guy are hand to hand and you can be decisive. Otherwise in #1, I’d only engage with a long gun/trunk gun from a safe distance 100yrds or so, hopefully in communication with 911.
I’d like to think I would have the balls to come to the assistance of a LEO who was fighting for his life. But having never been in a situation where I had a gun pointed at me, much less being fired upon, there’s probably a significant gap between what I imagine I would be capable of doing in the hypothetical versus what I would actually do when confronted with the reality.
I also have read about, heard discussed, and watched on video enough shooting scenarios to realize they are usually over before a bystander even knows what’s going on, much less has the time to reliably assess the situation and make an informed judgment about whether to intervene or not. Thus, I voted for the first scenario and would be less likely to jump into the middle of the second and third scenarios, just because of the much greater level of ambiguity.
A guy shooting up a school bus full of kids? I’m gonna do what I can to stop him. A street gunfight with a bunch of guys I don’t know from Adam? I’m probably gonna take cover, call 911, and let the pros sort it out.
Down LEO with backup on way. Unknown number of bad guys. Unknown number of bystanders. CCW suggests handgun. Safety suggests distance. So I had to pick None. It seems like I might cause even more harm. Might get innocents killed and might get me killed by LEO’s in route. Me, handgun, distance… I might likely miss and kill the already downed LEO.
Option 1 only if I were in a position of advantage i.e. good cover, and the attacker was unaware of my presence. Since I get to choose, I’ll pick the gunfight where:
A.) Situation is clear
B.) I have the upper hand
All other confrontations I’ll avoid unless I’m forced into it.
Yeah I gotta agree with what’s been said so far. Option #1 but even then only under certain circumstances. The only way I could even think of intervening in #2 or #3 is if I had a lot more data on which I could make a decision.
Similar real world incident happened just recently. A very unfortunate accidental shooting occured in NY. A retired ATF officer intervened in a robbery and was mistakenly identified as a bad guy resulting in an off duty officer shooting and killing Mr. Capano. Article can be read here.
John Capano, a 23-year veteran with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives was also killed.
Capano was an explosives expert with multiple tours in Afghanistan and Iraq training soldiers to defuse IEDs, federal authorities said.
According to early accounts, it appeared that Capono shot the suspect – who was believed to be armed as he fled the drug store–a family business for several generations, local cops said. Then Capano himself was shot and killed by an off duty officer.
This is why as a civilian I move away from the sound of gunfire (at a very low posture) when outside of my house. My military career and gunfire within my home are the only exception to this rule. Realistically, the only way that I deploy my weapon is if an attacker gets between me and escape.
I MAY intervene on behalf of another person in very limited instances only when I have the element of complete surprise (i.e. shot to the back of an attacker). I am not in the business of exposing myself to save a stranger when I’ve got little mouths to feed.
At the college clubs in Iowa City some chick started screaming about how some guy beat her and was trying to rape her. The dude hauled ass and several people, including me, started after him.
He looked a little bit like a dirt bag but when we caught him he started yelling “I didn’t do it” and “Leave me alone” and of course a couple of the guys who caught him were anxious for a fight and kept yelling “Fuck him up.”
Long story short cops get there pretty quick and except for some minor road rash that happened when the guy got tackled nobody hurt him.
Turns out he was breaking up with the girl for a different one and she was trying to get even. That was one of my first eye openers because I was positive I was one of the good guys and helping a poor innocent victim. The other thing that amazed me is the guys who wanted to beat the shit out of him sorta seemed disappointed when the whole thing got sorted out. They didn’t show a hint of concern that they almost beat up the good guy.
The only scenario I hope I would have the sand to assist in is #1. The other 2 are no go’s. I more than likely would not fire a shot unless defending myself. I more than likely would be applying pressure to the officers wounds best I can while my wife or employee called 911.
The liability is just too great to discharge my weapon in defense of someone else, an unfortunate consequence of our overly litigious society. However I can not sit by and let an Officer bleed out or die alone on the asphalt without doing something.
Again, in most real world situations you will probably have very few facts. I’m asking what people would do (or what they believe they would do) when faced with such a situation.
at 48 with two kids I have nothing to prove and if I was single I would maybe have dif views
most likely a police in trouble is in trouble and he is on the good side of things I would say that with %99.9 certainty I would have to make sure I could communicate do you want help ! before I helped so I was not all of a sudden seen as a bad guy also ! my biggest fear would be another unit rolling up and me with a gun engaging ? would the situation go south for me quickly ?
anyone else or #2 or #3 I can pretty much say NO because I don’t know the story so not my place to step in
, but when I see people’s video’s of a shooting, it seems you’re lucky if you can tell where the shots and players are. He’s given that you actually have identified all the players and what the risks are and who is armed, hell that’s not a gun fight, that’s an IDPA match.