CC...a critical review and discussion

Training Training and Tactics
1

Okay, with all this talk RE Colorado, and all the talking heads/idiots ranging from ALL pointy things are bad to everyone should carry has gotten the hamsters upstairs spinning.

First, I’m a huge PROPONENT for the 2nd amendment and carrying; however, I find myself torn RE carrying. Now before you start either ranting or tuning out, let me express my POV…I view carrying as a privilege that comes with great responsibility. Responsibility as defined in knowing how to run your equipment proficiently, understanding the moral/ethical/legal implications of carrying, and having the right mindset.

Now with that stated, I’m starting to get overly concerned with the mantra that everyone should carry. I think that is a recipe for disaster that could lead to many lives lost because of friendly fire. BTW, this conversation mainly revolves around the average citizen…trained professionals and LEO obviously have their own protocols.

You might ask why?

I think it’s a simple answer…not everyone has the training and mindset to carry. Using the CO incident as an example, statistically the odds were stacked against any one armed and trained (i.e, proficient) citizen being able to successfully (i.e. without inflicting collateral damage) dispatch the shooter. Now, imagine the incident if 2 or more armed citizens were present. Who do you shoot? Whose the bad guy? Double this when you’ve lost 2 or more of your senses and have no situational awareness (as most sheeples do). Do you shoot everyone and ask questions later?

I get this false perception that many people who carry think it’s like a video game…they are disconnected and think that once they draw their firearm, they have a God power that allows them to run around shooting and not expect to get hurt.

Now, a solution would be more training, but that is an unrealistic answer for Joe Citizen…especially if they do not have the mental mindset that carrying means that you may have to take a life. Members on this forum obviously are the exception, which I commend you for.

I’m curious to hear your thoughts.

ETA - If the conversation start discussing tactics, please do not broadcast code-words/tactics on a public forum.

2

Not a personal jab, but I hope the liberal Austin mindset hasn’t worn off on you bud…the RIGHT (NOT privilege) to keep and bear arms is extended to EVERYONE. Period.

With that, you will have both very dialed in civvies who will carry safely AND the idiots who badly NEED training for the safety of themselves and others around them.

I was actually thinking about this this morning when I heard a story about a guy in Dallas, TX (I believe it was yesterday) who was carrying a loaded gun in his back pocket at some store. He was in line with a mother and daughter behind him when he reached in his pocket and accidentally pulled the trigger! The round grazed his leg and hit the concrete floor showering the mother and daughter with frag. No serious injuries, but some common sense (especially when it comes to holster choice) and training could have prevented the whole situation. Idiots like him are the reason the rest of us, who are diled in, are painted in a bad light.

I have my own thoughts on how to keep people accountable for their training and safe handling of carry weapons, but writing policy is not my job, so I’ll just leave it at that.

3

It comes down to this for me: I don’t care if you carry or not. Don’t take away my right to own firearms or to carry.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

4

Trust me, I’m probably one of the few that keep pressing the conservative right in Austin. I’ll avoid the RIGHT vs PRIVILEGE discussion, but I’m coming from the mindset of a father of two.

I am using the CO incident as a mental training exercise, and I’m having problems seeing what good can come of having idiots such as the one you mentioned legally carrying in such an incident. It’s bad enough that the LEO is trying to identify the assailant, but throw in a handful of idiot armed citizens and you’ve got a perfect storm brewing.

5

You’ve already touched on the important parts: understanding the responsibility, correct mindset and a lot of common sense. Knowing when not to act is probably another top trait to have.

With that said, I would not recommend anyone carry if they are not seriously prepared to defend themselves as you can then make the situation worse.

Second, call me crazy but i think if everyone carried, these idiots would think twice before acting as there is a high possibility of everyone being armed. These guys tend to pic their victims well.

6

I’m with Ironman8. The carrying is not a privilege. The state can make it illegal, but that would be unconstitutional.

I do agree that people should treat firearms with great care and consideration. Those who carry should be trained in their use and understand how and when they should employ the use of their firearm.

And such is the case with many other potentially dangerous tools: cars, trucks, tractors, chainsaws, words, etc. When people don’t know what they’re doing, they and others can get hurt.

Accidents and stupidity happen all the time.

7

Having been in an incident involving a firearm and a dirtbag (no shots fired thank God), I can tell you this unequivocally. When the police do show up, they don’t give two shits who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. If you have a gun out, be prepared to INSTANTLY comply with all orders and don’t make any sudden movements.

As far as recognizing who’s a threat and who isn’t… well, that’s a bit of a gamble in my opinion. My first concern is the obvious threat. Once that’s dealt with, assess the rest of the situation and go from there. I’d hope that someone else who’s carrying and able to even identify the original threat in enough time to present their gun will also pick up on the fact that I’m looking at where the original threat was as well.

Like I said, it’s a bit of a gamble, but I’d rather lose that bet on the chance they don’t rather than lose the bet on the obvious dirtbag by doing nothing.

8

And I figured you weren’t liberal, but just understand that the Libs use the same arguement, that only certain people should be allowed to have a gun (ie. LEO/Mil). It’s either all or nothing (with only a few exceptions…see below).

I also realize that there is a fine line between the “right Vs. privilege” argument, but the way I look at it is that you have the RIGHT to carry, until you have voluntarily by means of criminal action or involuntariy in the case of mental illness given up that right to carry. I see “privilege” as something that is given to you that doesn’t necessarily have to be given to you. A “right” is something that only you can give away.

9

As someone that that comes across a lot of CCW holders (in the training we hold, in our shop and at professional instructors classes), I can tell you that I understand your concern. I have expressed several times that if I was KING, I would require everyone to shoot your States LE qual’s and if you couldn’t pass it, you couldn’t carry.

On last Sunday’s Fox News show, Feinstein was on talking about the shooting. The question was posed that if more people carried, that the incident could have been stopped. Her comment back was; “What if they shot someone other than the shooter?”

The answer to the question is, yes that can happen. The question that no one wants to ask is, if a CCW holder accidentially shoots a friendly while they stop the bad guy, is that acceptable? In many liberals eyes, that is NOT acceptable. They would prefer to allow the bad guy to kill as many people as they like.

So OP, while I partially agree with your thoughts/concerns, but at the end of the day you can get a friendly on friendly shooting (just like Cops shooting Cops) and innocent people might get hurt in an effort to kill the bad guy and I am fine with that.

C4

10

I would argue that the shooter DID THINK everyone was armed (as he knows CCW is common in his State). This is why he had body armor on and a helmet (as he has expecting a gun fight).

So if everyone was OPEN carrying, would have not done what he did? No, I don’t think so.

C4

11

In this particular case it seems this guy was prepared to go through with this no matter what; sadly, these occurrences will happen time to time.

I think training could have changed the situation a bit and this is where society tends to fail, many will buy a sidearm but will not train or shoot it enough to be able to effectively defend themselves or their loved ones.

However, I do think there are many bad guys (semi sane ones) that would think twice if there is a high percentage that granny is packing a .45 in her purse and she knows how to use it. The pay off just wouldn’t be worth it.

Open carry is a different discussion all together i think.

12

Gents,

Thank you for all the different POVs. C4, I think you’ve kind of gotten the old hamsters spinning in a higher gear now. I agree with you that sh*t happens and deal with it, but now framing that in the context you’ve described, I find myself somewhat perplexed. I guess fatherhood changes one’s view because at one time I wouldn’t have given this a second thought.

As for who gets shot first…err I mean open carry, yes, that is definitely another topic to itself.

13

I would have liked to have someone in the room like Ironman8 (that has accuracy and room clearing training) put a few rounds on the shooter to see if he changed his mind about what he was doing (or not). We will never know for sure, but I do think that a show of force is always a good thing and bad guys tend to be cowards and not looking for a fair fight (so they will always select places where there are the most sheep).

C4

14

As a Father of two young boys, I understand your fears. Their safety and my safety (as they need me) becomes priority one. So if I have an escape route that I can push them through (VS fighting), that is what is going to happen. Sorry, but the publics safety isn’t my job as a CCW holder (your on your own).

If I cannot escape, I will stand and fight for THEM.

C4

15

Thanks Grant, I can only wish/hope that yourself and the guys I have trained with who are on top of things would be somewhere around if/when the poop starts to fly. Unfortunately, guys like yourself are too far and few between…

This brings up a good topic, that I hope can stay within the confines of the OP…

I have thought about this CO shooting and what I could have possibly done if I were there (and please don’t take this as MMQB’ing). First, I would have been there most likely with just my wife, or possibly a couple of other friends or family members…no kids for me yet.

Putting myself (hypothetically) in this situation, I would be torn between ending the threat as quickly as possible OR getting the fam to safety and then (if need be) ending the threat.

My first instinct would probably be to get my wife/fam down behind some cover/concealment and end the threat asap, but then there’s still the possibility of my fam being in danger…BUT hopefully not for very long.

The problem with option #2 in this situation is that, unless you are the first one to the exit door, your exit will be delayed or possibly blocked altogether with all the chaos going on. Although I do usually try to be somewhere near an exit wherever I go. There’s also the possibility that you or fam could get shot in the back while trying to exit…

Lots of possibilities, but I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts here.

16

Actually, I like where this discussion is going. You guys are hitting things right on the head. The part regarding CC that makes things unpalatable for me is not knowing whose the threat, and how to maneuver through the mess.

If it was only me, cool…assess the situation and act appropriately (even if that means bugging out), but with my family in tow, things get really interesting. I personally would be outraged to find out Joe Citizen who by all purposes should NOT have been issued a permit had hurt/killed anyone in my family, especially if it was later determined to be negligence (e.g., dude starts to light up the place since he freaked out).

I guess what I’m saying is that CC is a good thing, but we really need to have a higher standard on who can carry. Call me an elitist pr*ck, but I’ve also seen too many idiots whose mothers should have swallowed/spit issued permits.

17

I agree to an extent. I still don’t think that it should exclude anyone except for the people that I mentioned above. That higher standard needs to be achieved through training. Want to carry? Then you gotta train to a standard. My idea for this that I alluded to earlier is similar to the one that Grant mentioned about passing police quals. To take it a step further, I think these quals should be passed annually in order to keep the “permit” valid. But like I said, I don’t write policy…

18

I would argue that the shooter DID THINK everyone was armed (as he knows CCW is common in his State). This is why he had body armor on and a helmet (as he has expecting a gun fight).

I don’t think so Grant. He knew CCW was not allowed in the theater. He also knew there were police or some sort of armed security on duty. Plus to think the citizens were armed would not play into the comic book Batman theme he was living out to some degree.

19

And this is why most states have a felony murder law on the books.

20

Concealed carry is a good thing. The more people legally carrying the better, the more people with sensible training the better, and the more people who can shoot back at a gun wielding murderer the better. Having, carrying, and using firearms is a RIGHT, not a priviliege - and if you don’t treat it as a right then the left is going to take it from you. Hell, they’re going to try to take it from you anyway.