Carry loads, when to cut weight of gear, etc.

I completely understand what you are saying. I too try to lighten my kit all of the time. But I still carry no fewer than 7 mags on my kit with 2 in my rifle. I can add 3 more with the addition of a sub-load very quickly. I work my Kit all of the time trying get the best configuration. I have found that a comfortable load is better than a light load.

When I really want o go light I sometimes I carry a Blue Force Gear 10 Speed Chest Rig. It is light, comfortable, and compact. Yet I can still carry 5 M4 mags and a radio. I also strap a few TQs to it and carry an IFAK (fanny pack), pistol w/ 3 mags, dump pouch (SSE), Flex cuffs (D- ring on belt) multi tool, surefire, Strider folding knife, Chem lights, NODs, Note book w/ markers (in the map pocket of BFG Rig) Watch, GPS, and my survival kit (Sleeve pocket). This is my VERY light Minimalist kit. Yes it is light and I cut the fat, so to speak, but I still carry 7 mags. I understand not wanting to carry a bunch of useless stuff and the mission drives EVERYTHING. I also use this kit for my lightweight CIV kit (minus the radio and add another M4 mag). Just remember that as a CIV that wants to be prepared your mission is everything; you have to be ready for anything.

One thing I have noticed a few people here saying is that they carry a few AK mags and this and that and blah blah blah I’ll never need more than that… I think they need to realistically and smartly analyze, is it better to only be able to carry 4 AK mags, or maybe consider switching my primary weapon to something like an M4, where I can carry an extra 2-3 mags for the same weight (I wont get into the benefits over of the M4 type system over the AK here), but it all just comes down to thinking about this situation smartly. I read a post earlier talking about going on “small missions” to your house through town to rescue family… and how you need less to move faster… that is total b/s… ask a f#@king Ranger on a QRF getting the call to go rescue a SEAL team ambushed on a Mountain… yeah I’m sure they will leave the gear behind so they can move faster… I’m telling you right now I would want every hard chargin dick swinger comin to get me loaded to bear… this situation is even more so amplified in the civilian side because like its been said… you are on your own… so you need to be prepared to fight your way in and out if comes down to that…

be prepared for anything and everything… combat situations are fluid and are subject to change at any time… you might pack 4 mags but then go oh shit this is lasting a lot longer than I had planned for and be SOL… in the reverse… you might be there and go well shit I just carried 9 mags for a 2 minute fight and didn’t even need to reload… oh well… wasted calories not wasted blood… but then again… that 2 minute fight may then as its ending escalate quickly into a 45 minute fight…

its better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it… thats why I carry a HEED bottle… how many of you have thought about carrying one of those? probably none… but what if your vehicle ends up overturned in the drink… or you need to E&E through a marine environment… Even LEO guys should think about that… they are the first responder to a scene and a car has been submerged for an unknown time… they grab their bottle and go in… swapping the bottle with the occupants if need be…

Pascals Wager… its better to play it safe in the end…

My god, so many assumptions, so many judgments, and so much projecting. This still seems to be more about “stupid civilians and their toys” for you than anything else.

For someone in a non-LE civilian role the reason they are training could vary widely, the two most common reasons would both be very different: home defense against an intruder and complete civil meltdown. For some there are intermediary situations like temporary civil meltdown (think NOLA post-Katrina). But in truth the reasons for training are as different as the people there getting the training.

and here’s the thing, for a large portion of those people, it really is nothing more than Outward Bound with guns. Spend a weekend with the boys, going out for dinner and beers afterwards, get away from the family… hell it might as well be a weekend trip to the Masters. But not everyone is there for that.

But “prepared” is different for everyone. For some it might be a suppressed SBR with a Redimag attached and spare magazines stashed around the house. For some it might be an ACOG-equipped truck gun and a man-purse full of magazines behind the seat of the truck.

Civilians, both LE and non, will always face the issue of balancing “train like you’d fight” with having the right gear for the training environment. For the guy that wants an M4 and training to defend against home invaders to “train like you’d fight” he’d need to be out on the range in his boxers and the wife’s slippers. Which, BTW, means no 8-mag chest rig in sight. :wink:

I really do appreciate your thoughts about my post…I’m not here to defend my position, just discuss why I think the way I do.

First let me remind you that the situations were hypothetical…who knows what I will have to load out and go with), and second, the situations listed are not in a warzone where there are trained enemies with automatic weapons behind every rock.

Also, the biggest point that you missed was that being solo, you don’t have the luxury of a fireteam watching your back all the time and able to put rounds down range on multiple targets. Being on the move solo would drastically change your tactics…which can be seen in the situation that I’m assuming you referenced with the Ranger QRF rescuing the SEALs (in Operation Redwing)…what did Luttrell do when he was solo? He E&E’d and fought only when he had to. It would be suicide to engage every enemy that presented himself just because he’s there…its best to just stay low, let him pass, or chose another route to your objective (if possible).

Also keep in mind, I’m not saying that you only need three mags on your chest rig and one in the gun. My “hypothetical loadout” had 6. I just think for a civ situation, and with the changed tactics, it would be better to be faster and low profile as possible, than to be armed to the teeth ready for an extended firefight…

I do apologize for coming off as a dick, I don’t mean to insult you or your way of thinking, I think this issue really is just personal preference. I personally, especially after reading stories like Lone Survivor, where they were engaged by a vastly outnumbering force and ran completely dry of ammunition, will always put up with the weight of more ammo. Just a difference in personal opinion. I do apologize if it didn’t come off that way.

No that’s not at all how I took it. I like to hear others’ opinions to see if my own holds water ya know. I don’t get butthurt over internet stuff anyway lol

Lone Survivor is one of the greatest books ever…read it three times!

Read “Roberts Ridge”… on par if not better than Lone Survivor… about Neil C. (Fee Fee) Roberts

Something else I’ll add…

If the only reason you’re working out and striving to maintain physical fitness is to carry more ammo, your priorities are all screwed up. For a non-LE civilian the reason you eat right, exercise, etc. is because you acknowledge that the likelihood of needing a firearm, any firearm, to sustain your life is exponentially smaller than the likelihood of dying from an illness related to lack of physical fitness or basic health, and that being fleet of feet and having good situational awareness, not to mention not putting yourself in stupid situations to begin with, is exponentially MORE likely to save your life than any gun, regardless of whether you have one or twenty magazines for it.

It is defiantly not “stupid civilians and their toys”. I want to make sure that everyone knows that I am not “bagging” on the CIV enthusiasts and their guns.

All I am trying to do is to get people to THINK about what they are doing and why they are doing it. I know that if I say that you need to carry more mags no one is going to pay attention, unless I was some CIV uber-tacticool course instructor. :jester:

If you are part of the “Just want to go shoot with the boys” group, fine. I have no issues with it, hell I do it all of the time. If that is the case then disregard everything that I say, you are not my intended audience. If you are training for something, then this applies to you. Just think about every possible situation and set your gear up as best as you can. I look at my kit as my life support system. I keep it as organized as possible and put all of the most important stuff I can think of on it. No there is no magic kit that will be perfect in all situations ( that is why I have several, well more than several… :secret: don’t tell my wife that I have 8 differant set ups). Prep your kit and train in it.

Everyone is going to have differing opinions on the subject. That is mostly based on experience and what kind of training you get. That is fine. Go with it. That is why Forums such as this are good. People from all walks of life and different levels of experience can share ideas and hopefully we can find a solution to the enigma of the perfect kit.

A strong mind is just as important as a strong body. I can’t agree with you more ion that. But being in shape is a much deeper subject

I think that the references to that are coming from people that are soldiers and they are training their bodies to be able to do their job……not the case in the CIV world. What does apply to the CIV world is that you need to be in shape to properly be doing the training courses that so many go to. You can be the best shot in the world but if you “fall out” running from one point of cover to another; the guy who is “ spraying and praying” is going to get you.

That and it is just healthier in the long run

This thread made me recall this blog by Kyle Defoor…The Minimalist.

Different professions and different requirements mean different equipment needs. If you’re an 11B or 0311 and your mission is taking and holding territory defended by a well equipped and committed enemy, carrying extra magazines (along with your share of ammunition for crew served weapons) on top of the basic combat load makes perfect sense.

On the other hand, I’m always mystified that among civilian CCW carriers, a handgun and two spare magazines is generally accepted as the standard loadout for defensive purposes, but grab the more powerful, more capable and higher capacity rifle, and there is almost a compulsion to carry more magazines than the average soldier. Often the additional ammunition is added before the IFAK, armor or commo gear. Reasoning often gravitates to the worst case scenarios of military operations (Blackhawk Down, Lone Survivor, etc) and what Defoor describes as the “I’ll have it if I need it” mindset.

I find myself more in agreement with Defoor for my purposes.

Well said, sir…very well said.

I think beyond a point if you want to add mags, add them in an assault pack. The odds you will need more than a handful of mage like a basic load on your chest and belt before you can pull more from a pack or even pull a bandoleer and reload them is very small for a civilian. Hell, it ain’t that great for a full blown mud-eater either!

Beyond weight, it is just the whole turtle effect of the bulk. I say streamline your chest as much as possible and layer.

Layer one is belt. It is pistol, pistol mags and one rifle mag in a speed reload holder.

Layer two is the vest/chest rig. 4-6 more mags and a basic first aid/boo-boo pouch. One canteen or hydration bladder.

Layer three is more ammo and first aid gear in your assault pack.

That way you can quickly and easily layer yourself to the nature of the threat.

This is often referred to as lines, IE first line gear, second line, and third line. Its also useful for determining what is vital, the idea being if you have to ditch things you start at three and work your way down to what is absolutely essential, your first line kit. For conversation’s sake I’d run something like this:

1st line:
Belt with pistol, 2 pistol magazines, knife and multitool, Israeli Bandage and/or CAT. Maybe a small survival kit as location and mission dictate. Never carried a rifle magazine on this line but don’t see the problem with it so long as its not awkward, a horizontal magazine pouch might do this well. Also note that this falls into whats directly on you, such as carrying your CAT in a sleeve pocket.

2nd line:
Chest rig or other form of LBE with 4-X magazines, more extensive first aid kit, water and food in small quantities. Small items that are mission essential, IE chem lites, flash light, rope and snap links for SAR, restraints, etc. Armor can fall into this category though depending on kit and SOP it can fall into 1, sort of a 1.5 line.

3rd line:
Assault pack/ruck/go bag with food, water, ammo, more specialized tools as necessary (IE tomahawk, breaching etc), survival equipment (socks, fire starters, poncho, etc etc), spare parts such as an AR bolt, communications equipment (though this too can fall into line 2 or even 1).

All of these are going to be mission and location dependent but the 1st and 2nd line are pretty much the same across the board.

Ok so this thread had me thinking…so I put together all my gear that I would have taken on one of those “hypothetical missions” I spoke about above and weighed it.

I stripped this down to the bare minimum, and the weight definitely added up! Check it out…

14.5" M4 : 10 lbs
-One loaded mag in gun
-EOTech
-Light
-Sling

Belt System : 9 lbs
-Emdom MM CM Belt
-Inner belt
-2 M4 mags
-2 Pistol mags
-Holster and Sidearm (with one loaded mag in gun)
-Small med kit
-Roll-up dump pouch

Plate Carrier : 20 lbs
-Pair Hard Armor
-Pair Soft Armor
-3 M4 mags on front
-2 Glow sticks

Assault Pack : 16 lbs
-3L Camelbak
-2 Field Stripped MREs
-Poncho
-Small Survival Kit (weighs about a lb)
-Couple extra med supplies
-Headlamp
-Extra socks
-Few extra miscellaneous items

***Grand Total Weight of 55 LBS!

As you can see, the weight piled up pretty quick even without taking the 8+ mags that others were talking about. And yes I realize that each loaded M4 mag is about a pound extra, so what the heck right? :rolleyes: This was an eye opener for me as well to be honest.

I thought I could get away with under 40 lbs, but as you can see, that’s not happening if I plan to add the assault pack. 55 lbs spread out over your body isn’t too bad though. I had a class this last weekend where I trained with the above setup (minus the assault pack) and didn’t feel too bogged down with the weight…actually, to be honest, I didn’t know I was carrying 40 pounds at the time lol…with that said, I STILL need to get into better shape…if not for “combat” then at least just for general health.

Hope this helps somebody sort through their loadout as well…

I am a civilian

Somewhere (maby either 10-8 or lightfighter) I read something that has stuck with me. Basically it said if you cant climb a fence, or do physical tasks such as pullups than you are carrying too much. It made me think what if I actually had to pull myself up while wearing gear? Ever since then I have done pullups with an additional 40lbs(or worked up to that amount). Lets face it if you are going to work out you and you are going to have a “gear setup” than you owe it to yourself to start doing some of you workout with extra weight.

At this point I still have not set up any gear. I am mostly a pistol shooter and have focused there. The 40lbs just seemed like a good place to put my upper limit, though as a civy I am planning on having a much lighter setup.

I am glad this thread was created. The other thread has been on my mind since DocSherm chastised the less is more viewpoint I just didnt want to go off topic.

Any thing else to add dude, other than the snide remark, now that thisis the topic? :rolleyes:

Not everyone can afford to train, buy ammo kit etc and update it every time a newer lighter version is made. Wives don’t really like hearing about needing a new 300$ plus flashlight because the one you bought seven months ago is an ounce heavier. Sometimes you just have to train with what you have, and realize what you have is more than enough to get the job done. I think civilians (myself included) get way to wrapped up in this shit then they need to.
I’m still rocking a callahan for gods sake and it gets it done just fine.

I added earlier. I did not think I was being snide.

Two cents:

Over the years, there has been a lot of cross pollination of ideas between civilian and military gear. Camelbak was originally a civilian idea for bike riders who wanted to take a hands free drink. It was quickly snatched up by the military community. This caused Camelbak to make even better gear and these good ideas flowed across the military and civilian product lines. This sort of thing happens time and again.

A good idea can come from anywhere.

A lot of .mil guys spend a fair amount of money on civilian outdoor gear. In short order, the civilian outdoor companies realize this trend and tailor their gear with an eye toward possible .mil uses. This is especially true for SOF buyers where SOF will often just buy what they need. Latter, Big Army will realized what a good idea this is and make it a general issue item.

PEO Soldier and MARCORSYSCOM have done yeoman’s work taking civilian gear and tailoring it for troops in the field. We have come a long way from the brown wool sweater and field jacket.

The current trend in military equipment is to look at the ‘ultralight’ backpacking and alpine community. This is largely due to our current fight in the mountains and valleys of Afghanistan.

A while ago, folks realized that 500D nylon was nearly as tough as 1000D at half the weight. 500D is norm for civilian alpine equipment.

The same goes for the shooting community. Nearly every good idea in small arms improvements, training, and employment came from the civilian 3 Gun/ IPSC community. Aimpoints were the IPSC standard long before every GI in the Army had one on their M4. Of course, military use then required Aimpoint to improve their product for their new best customer.

Again, this stuff has been cross pollinated for years. I for one am glad we have a lot of civilian shooters. This forces companies to be competitive and innovative. It forces shooters to continue to validate and improve their technique. For generations, America has been a nation of Riflemen.

As to particular loads…

As others have said, the mission will dictate your equipment. For me personally, I carry one M4 mag on my belt in a Bladetech holder, 3 mags on my plate carrier, one in my weapon, and three more mags in my tiny assault pack/GTS bag. I have never felt under armed but I also have yet to have a Blackhawk Down style running gun battle.

As a general rule, I too would argue that you should be able to run an obstacle course in your fighting load. Running, clearing a fence or climbing through a window are pretty routine tasks. If you can’t do this in your current kit than you may have problems when the shooting starts. If you cannot drive a vehicle in your current rig than you will also have problems.