Budget Optics: PA vs Millet

Tactical Gear Optics & Mounts
1

I’ve learned a lot here, and figure that the 4x-16x scope I had lying around that I threw on my flattop (no iron sights) MP15 is not what most use on a gun like this. I’d like to get a different optic that will let me use the gun for closer stuff, and that will hold zero better than the $100 scope that’s on there.

I’ve heard and read decent things about the Primary Arms Microdot and the Millet SP2. However, I haven’t seen them compared to each other. Does anyone here have experience with both and can briefly contrast them? I am on a budget here, would rather spend the money on ammo to get better at shooting stuff, and don’t want to waste $100.

I know that there are much better sights out there, but those will go on the gun in a year or two when I’m out of grad school and have a job :slight_smile: Before then though, I would like to take a tactical carbine class, and the huge scope on the gun now won’t work well for that.

2

congratulations on wanting to get training with your carbine. as far as I know, almost all carbine courses can be run with iron sights.

that said, decide what you want to do with this carbine - if it’s a HD (Home Defense) gun then you should know that the optics you have listed are classified as “recreational”, in that they are not designed for reliability or durability, but to meet a price point.

I’m going to go ahead and say that if you can’t (or don’t want to) spend the money for a trusted optic, that you take the course with irons only. the last one day carbine course I took had max ranges of 50 yds and I’d say about 1/3 of the class was running irons with very good effect.

in the meantime, if you do get one of these recreational optics - to learn and practice with - while saving up for a trusted optic, I would mount it to co-witness with your irons so that when you reach for it and it has the “do not disturb” sign out, you can run the gun like you trained…

3

^^^ What he said.

Good Irons are critical. If you are short on cash wait for someone selling a pair of used MBUS ($60+/-). They will out last any optic.
Now to your original question, I would take the PA optic. I have heard good things about them. But Irons first…

4

Yes, that is one of several advantages of removing the huge scope I have now, which does not allow for fast close target acquisition, due to the 4x magnification, and the need to position oneself correctly to see through the darn thing, and it does not let me put iron sights on. I would put on a set of MBUS along with the budget optic.

I know that the $100 optics aren’t going to be as nice or reliable as a $1k ACOG or a $400 Eotech, but at 10-25% of the cost, I feel that it certainly must deliver more than 10-25% of the value.

The gun is purely for fun at the range and HD, since I’m not trusting my life to the carbine in daily combat and statistically am extremely unlikely to ever need to actually use it for HD, I’m sure a $100 budget optic that strays ever so slightly from zero over time, and needs new batteries a few times a year, will suffice at present.

Once I’m making the big bucks though…haha! I’m enjoying what I’ve seen on a Magpul Dynamics DVD, and definitely want to improve my skills.

5

when you say you are, “not trusting my life to the carbine in daily combat and statistically am extremely unlikely to ever need to actually use it for HD”, you should understand that a self defense weapon is like a life boat on a sinking ship, or a fire extinguisher in a house fire - you may not ever need it but if you do need it, nothing can take it’s place…

now, I’m not of the opinion that you need a $500 optic on your carbine for “serious use” but you do need to have an absolutely 100% durable and reliable primary method of aiming the gun. without a “trusted” optic, that is your iron sights. FYI, the optics you have asked about are not considered “trusted”…

realize that people continue to use irons sights to very effectively kill other people in combat even today, and in fact, some people even prefer irons for whatever reasons when their life is on the line.

your rifle probably has a front sight base (triangular sight tower)? if so, good, you have one of the best. if not, do you have rails or a railed gasblock?

if rails, I prefer a fixed front sight like the Daniel Defense. it is inexpensive and robust and won’t interfere with your sight picture regardless of what other optic you choose.

if you prefer a folding sight, someone already mentioned the Magpul Mbus. good kit, inexpensive, but as I said, I prefer fixed…

does it have a rear iron sight, either fixed or folding? if so, good, you have almost everything you NEED to keep the bogeyman at bay except a white light. this is for identifying things you DO want to shoot from those you don’t. having it attached to the gun is a pretty good idea as it is really hard to shoot a rifle one handed if you don’t know how.

on a rifle that I (and especially you, at this stage of the game) will be relying on the iron sights as the primary sighting system, I prefer a fixed. again, the Daniel Defense fixed 1.5 rear sight is my favorite. all previous conditions apply. you may not, and feel that a folding sight is best but make sure you get a good one.

a good folding sight is going to be more expensive than a good fixed but allows you to fold it down (duh) to fit under magnified optics. Troy is the gold standard but expensive. Magpul Mbus, as mentioned, about half the cost but still reported to be pretty good.

fwiw, I have both but only run the Magpul under a 1-4 magnified optic, as this is not my immediate action/close quarters gun and on this rifle, the Mbus is good enough for me…

if you intend to run a Red Dot Sight (Aimpoint or whatever) then a folding sight is not necessary and many people (me included) run a fixed rear sight with an Aimpoint.

most folks prefer a lower 1/3 co-witness rather than absolute. this simply means that if you look through the RDS the alignment of the iron sights will be in the lower 1/3 of the tube leaving the red dot floating above them. they feel this gives a less obstructed view through the optic tube. I agree when using my Aimpoint mounted rifle. - exception - I run a Troy folder behind my absolute co-witness Eotech on my “fun” gun.

so back to your question about the two optics you have listed, choose the one you like best for whatever reason - price, availability, whatever… many people have tried and like the Primary optics but I have no experience nor have I heard any opinions on the other you have asked about. that may be a clue…

just remember this, neither should be considered your “primary” sighting system on a rifle that you may need to defend yourself with. if something goes “bump” in the night, and you have time to arm yourself and activate this optic, and it works, well, fantastic! but I would not depend on it. and I would probably not even activate it as one of the problems of a cheap optic is maintaining zero and you cannot miss fast enough to win a gun fight…

6

With the current scope on the gun, there is no room for iron sights. Heck, it’s rough to even reach the charging handle to clear double feeds or other issues very quickly.

Moving to an inexpensive optic would allow me to put on iron sights as well, and train with both systems.

The carbine has a railed gas block, no FSB.

Is the issue zero, or just reliability? I don’t think minor zero issues will matter much at the extreme close range of HD, but I could be wrong. Reliability issues, I understand more.

And, this would give me the option to run iron sights, which hold a zero and never run out of batteries :slight_smile:

I just don’t know enough to tell a difference between a PA Microdot, PA M4 clone, and a Millet SP2. I can tell a difference in size, and battery source, and run time, but I have no clue why one would go with one over another. How do you figure out which one works best for you via the internet? Is there some guideline where I can check off boxes and add up numbers to determine which of those three will work best for me? I’m struggling to know what sorts of keywords or phrases to search for when it comes to optics, there are so many terms ya’ll use that I have no clue exactly what they mean. I’m used to that, I get into lots of hobbies where there is a language to it, I just haven’t cracked the optics bit of this one yet :slight_smile:

Appreciating the advice!!!

7

so this is the OR (optics ready) model? you should confirm that the railed gasblock is the same height as the rail on the receiver.if not, then look for a model that specifically states it is for gasblocks so the sights will be the same height.

a simple (but not perfect way) to determine this is by laying a metal or plastic yard stick along the top of the receiver to the railed gasblock. if it spans them without apparent tipping it “should” be good to go but this is not a perfect method as there is minute differences in front sight height even among the permanent front sights. do some research here…

if so, the any of the common front sights will work. again, I prefer the fixed Daniel Defense. it doesn’t fold so that’s one (at least) less thing to worry about. and fwiw, a fixed front sight will not interfere with the sight picture of any optic - magnified or not.

these can be found for about $45 and the fixed rear for about $55 or $100 for the set. I prefer a fixed rear with a lower 1/3 mounted Red Dot Sight. for an absolute co-witness, or a 1-4 power scope, a folder is appropriate.

when I was a kid, my mom used to bring shoes home from the store “on approval” for me to try on and walk around in them to see if they fit or if I would like them. nowadays, I’ll some times order two different things and return the one that does not suit my tastes for whatever reason.

these being electronic sights, you can’t just buy them “on approval”, so if I was faced with the same choice you are, I would look beyond the optic you can afford and try to research, from recommendations and pictures of what the experienced kids are using, which “trusted” optic you’ll eventually want.

I would then try to mimic that with the “affordable” one and decide if it fills your operational needs - reliability, etc., notwithstanding.

fwiw, optics can fail in many different ways. they can simply not turn on, or they can lose their zero, fog up, fall off, etc… don’t assume that because the distance you’ll likely be using this for self defense is short, that mechanical zero is not critical. a broken sight can send bullets in some very out of the way places, even at short range.

have you ever heard of POA/POI? this is the concept that because of the mechanical offset of your sights from your bore, that your bullets Point of Impact is going to be different than your Point of Aim. this is a serious issue a close range. an optic that is out to lunch will make it much worserest…

AGAIN – if you do decide to mount one of the cheaper Red Dot Sights on your self defense rifle, I would only do so after I had a fully operational and zeroed set of irons sights. except for recreational use and “research”, I would not even turn this sight on at the moment I felt I needed it for serious use…

in my own case, I have yet to get one of the mini Aimpoints but am very interested in all the apparent benefits. I’m just not 100% sure that with some of the particular issues this optic brings to the table (tube size, dot size, etc…) that I will like it better than what I already have.

for me, this is a perfect reason for getting one of the Primary Arms micro-style and run it in a training environment. if it passes, I’ll move it to one of my funguns and order the Aimpoint. I would NEVER consider one of these for anything but recreation and research…

8

I have to ask.

I see this quite a bit around here regarding optics…“Is this a home defense gun? If so you should spend $500 to a K on your optics”.

What sort of “home defense” shoot are yall thinking about here? Since most defensive shootings wont even empty one magazine (in general), I have to wonder if some of you are talking Zombie Apocy. or TEOTWAWKI rather than “home defense”. I think that there are many optics out there under $400 that would work just fine on a “bump in the night rifle”.

9

I prefer aimpoints and am willing to spend the money on them because I can leave the red dot on for years. If I need to use the rifle I won’t be the one fumbling to press switches or turn knobs. That alone is worth the extra cash. Also witnessed cheaper red dots simply turn off or stop working for no reason at the range. There is always a possibility of this happening with all electronics but by going with reputable, tried and true optics… Well you get the idea.

10

Best idea is to get a set of irons for the gun, and just run them by themselves.

You will be a much better shooter, and be able to save up more money or shoot more ammo than if you buy a cheap optic you are just going to discard when you can afford a quality optic.

Master irons first, then move onto an optic when you can afford it. You cannot afford to waste $100+ on a cheap optic right now.

11

a couple thoughts about this - many people mention “home defense” when talking about the carbine as they don’t conceal very well and tend to unduly excite the locals if they glimpse someone slung up in the produce section at the grocery store.

the profile of home invasions, at least in this area, has changed from a single individual sneaking into your home to pilfer your VCR, into multiple persons, all or most of them armed, bursting forcefully in with the intent to subdue the occupants.

someone who comes into your home armed has already made a decision. and I’ve already decided I’m not going to give me or my family up to their mercy/judgment/stupidity and resist as forcefully as I know how from the get-go.

the discussion of whether the carbine is the best tool for HD is for another time and place but for the sake of argument, here’s the short version - IT IS…

as for your statement of “won’t even empty one magazine (in general)”, how do you know this??? what are the circumstances?

at a Citizens Police Academy session I attended recently, the training officer asked the question, “what is the average number of rounds generally fired in a gunfight?” his answer, “ALL OF 'EM!”. it seems that gunfights are not orderly affairs and people are prone to overreaction…

with multiple invaders in my home, I’d prefer to go with the have-it-and-not-need-it camp rather than the other thing. shooting a lot of boolits can buy you time if you’re in a fixed position, allow for movement to a better position, or change the mind of the attacker that, maybe, they’ve got better things to do and head for the exits…

additionally, some of us have property that we go out on from time to time. all the reasons above are as valid if outside as inside.

as for your statement that people say, “you should spend $500 to a K on your optics”, and, "I think that there are many optics out there under $400 that would work just fine on a “bump in the night rifle”, well, are you a gambler?

when you bet horses, do you take all the money you have and put it on the favorite or the longshot? a “trusted” optic may not work better than a “recreational” optic- though it generally does - but what you are buying with the extra investment is reliability.

just like the loudest sound in a gunfight is a “click” when there was supposed to be a “bang”, the worst thing you could see when you shoulder your rifle is… nothing…

you’ve got a decision to make. and just like the proponents of expensive motorcycle helmets are fond of saying, “if you’ve got a $10 head, then a $10 helmet should do you just fine”…