How much penetration does regular bird shot give in calibrated ballistics gel in a standard 10’ FBI test? Typical sizes like #8, #6, and #4?
I’m just looking for hard data for the frequent “use bird shot for home defense” debates that seem to pop up from time to time.
There is this .pdf
http://www.brassfetcher.com/12%20Gauge/12%20Gauge%20Shotgun%20Summary%20Table.pdf
Along with some videos here:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/12GaugeShotgun.htm
Funny because the #8 bird shot videos show the most energy expelled in the first inch to inch and a half of the gel and going drastically downward from there.
The last time I heard this whole “use bird shot” crap comes up since “women can’t handle a full power load from a shotgun,” I told the girl “hey, that round won’t even penetrate more than five inches into Jell-O, what makes you think it’s going to save you from being raped?” before telling her she should also find a boyfriend that actually cared enough to teach her to shoot effectively.
I know it’s not exactly the same, but tends to get folks attention…along with dirty looks from said boyfriend and causing a gun counter clerk to almost choke on his coffee.
3-5" is about right. Add some heavy clothing, and a jacket, and it will be even less. Also note that although birdshot hits together as a mass of shot the total penetration is dictated by the mass of individual pellets (which is very small).
The funny thing is that low recoil buckshot recoils about the same as a promo birdshot load.
I’m just looking for facts to point to. It is difficult getting someone to understand when they’ve been told something false by someone they think knows what they are talking about (gun store clerks, for example). It is easy for me to say birdshot is a bad choice, but I find it is more effective when you can point to data that shows why. At least it is more effective when dealing with intelligent people who really want to learn.
Thanks for the links, they are useful.
Bleeding all over the place might change a rapists mind and make it too slippery to hold on to a potential victim, but I’m just speculating a little.
“Changing a rapists mind” might be well and good, but stopping the threat should be the goal.
The only “changing” of a rapist’s mind that I would encourage would be from on to off.
Point is this douchebag had already decided everything from .32 on up was “too powerful” for her to handle. So douchebag’s idea? A .410 shotgun with bird shot since “it doesn’t have to be aimed” and “you can handle the recoil.” Yeah, that’s a great idea. :rolleyes: We are talking a 5’6 110, 120 lbs female who looked to be in decent enough shape to handle any number of compact sized 9mm pistols. So instead of being a royal douche and thinking she was too “weak” for a 9mm or even a 20 gauge with buck and slugs (as the gun store counter worker suggested), they could have picked out a firearm and gotten shooting lessons together since he, by the way he looked while handling the pistols, needed the training as well.
Instead of teaching her to protect herself and encouraging her to learn to master a pistol that could potentially save her life or maybe even his, he decided to be the aforementioned douche and think she was the weaker sex. Counter worker asked if she had ever shot before and she stated she hadn’t but wanted to learn “to protect myself.” She took an active interest in the selections and handled several pistols only to be told “I don’t think you can handle the recoil on that,” but had no clue she was being taken along for a ride by your typical idiot that believes everything they saw in a movie and comes in with preconceived notions of how great a shotgun is because “just the sound of the slide racking will make someone shit their pants.”
It probably wasn’t my place to butt in, but frankly, I’m too ornery and outspoken to have to listen to someone who has limited knowledge attempt to convince a grown woman who doesn’t know any better she is too weak to learn to shoot effectively. It’s the 21st century and if he can’t understand women can protect themselves just fine and learn to shoot just as well as men, he doesn’t deserve said woman. And with continued attitudes like that, possibly ends up with a significant other with serious emotional and physical trauma from a sexual assault because he convinced her she was “too weak” to learn to properly defend herself.
Apologies to the OP for the thread drift.
Bird shot is just fine…
For birds.
Sent from this… Using that…
Then again it may just piss him off and he could take the gun and disarm her kill her with it. Using bird shot is stupid.
Pat
A few weeks back I tried out some low recoil buck I had along with some light game loads. I was genuinely surprised the recoil wasn’t that much worse. It certainly made me think maybe a shotgun could have some use for me (My last shotgun experience was using some 3" buckshot loads. I almost swore off shotguns after that.).
I suppose it might work. It also might work to tell your attacker you have HIV, or to bark like a dog. I wouldn’t bet on any of them.
Since there is no guarentee with anything I’d rather bet on probably or most likely to work instead of might work. This is at the very core of why defensive ammunition selection is important.
Also of interest, I worked a homicide this week where the round used was buckshot. Trust me, you want to use buckshot if your goal is to stop somebody with a shotgun at close range.
Pfft. All birdshot does is give you a case of Detroit Measles.
During my trauma rotation we discharged 1 or 2 a day from the ER. Yup, you get shot, you don’t get admitted. Duck next time. See you next week.
Detroit Measeles…nice…
Yeah, if I hear one more “use birdshot in your house” or other shotgun nonsense I’ll put my head through the wall. The only use a shotgun provides me is that thing I loathe at 3-gun matches.
Dick Cheney shot a guy in the face with shot from a 28" or 30" bird gun, using a pheasant load – likely #5 or #6.
The guy recovered fine. From being shot in the face at pheasant hunting distance. Come on…
The beat part about the whole bird shot thing is that they take a weapon, when correctly loaded with HQ ammo, is very deadly and very scary, and load it with ammo that is absolutely useless.
Shotguns can be one very scary gun, if the person shooting hasn’t used ammo that’s weak for small game.
It makes me wonder what some of these idiots think. Would you use #8 for hunting a deer? Didn’t think so. Sad thing is that even hunters fall prey for the whole bird shot home defense BS.
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Most of the low recoil OO buck loads don’t kick any more than a low brass #8 load, not sure why one wouldn’t go with the buckshot except they are full of retard.
I saw lots of cases in the field like that from drive by’s, etc., where the shooter was 30+ feet away from the “victim”, but I also saw a couple DRT’s from close range torso hits. I’ve pointed that out to a couple people who thought birdshot was a good choice for “non-lethal”.
The brassfetcher birdshot tests used 7.5 and 8’s, I assume from 10 feet, and still got close to 6" max penetration. #6’s or 4’s, shot from 10 feet or closer would go deeper than that. I would never recommend birdshot for defense, but I’m pretty sure that’s going to get you admitted, if you don’t bleed out first.
Again, I’m not suggesting birdshot is at all a good choice, but it also can do a lot more than give someone the “measles”.
Lots of gun websites, and occasional gun magazine articles, still flog the “wall of lead” bullshit with birdshot, the “you don’t have to aim”, and the “you won’t over-penetrate and kill your neighbors” horsecrap. That’s why the Judge is still a top seller.
Even all the years later, science is still a rare component of most of the popular gun press.
Agreed, from close range, it CAN do damage. Then again, a paintball gun can kill too, but most folks don’t worry too much about that. But it’s inconsistent at best, in terms of how much damage. 30 feet, 10 yards - ie, probably about the max indoor range one would shoot. I’d rather go with a buck shot - 00 or #2 or #3. I’ve only seen one person shot w/ 00 buck - 1 pellet actually fractured his femur (don’t know the details on distance), the other 3 or 4 just flesh wounds to the thigh. As someone pointed out, the recoil isn’t all that bad, so why not go with something that’s more likely to work?
As for the gel tests, are they shooting through clothing? A good winter coat might do a lot to mitigate that penetration, esp if 10+ yards away. (rhetorical, I don’t mean to get in a shouting match w/ you)
Wish I could take credit for the “Detroit measles” comment, but it goes to a PA I worked with.
For a shouting match, I’d have to be claiming that birdshot is a good choice for self defense, which I took great pains to point out that I wasn’t.
But I also doubt many people shot at room’s length with birdshot, wouldn’t be admitted in the ER. Even a 4"-6" penetration, isn’t band aid time.