I just received my stock trigger back from Bill Springfield in Colorado Springs, CO.
I am totally impressed by his work. Probably between 3 1/2 to 4 lbs. and it’s like the proverbial “Breaking a Glass Rod” feel. no need to buy a $200 single stage trigger now.
Tack
I’ve had two FCGs done by him, and they are both incredible triggers.
The only problem I have with them is that I question their longevity. The first trigger I had done started shooting full auto, after it wore to the point where the trigger no longer caught the hammer after resetting.
For whatever it’s worth, I racked up an estimated 5,000 pulls on that trigger in 6 months (a ton of dry fire training), but it obiovusly makes me a bit leery of its durability. I haven’t been regularly dry firing the second group, so we’ll see.
Bill fixed the first trigger for me (he guarantees his work), so I’m going to continue to beat on it to see if I can make it shit again. It’s still a fantastic trigger, I’m just not so sure if I’d want to use one in a serious gun.
I’d be interested to hear if anyone else’s Bill Springfield trigger job has turned their AR into a machine gun…
I’d also like to hear if anyone else has had this happen?
750.356…Good feedback!
Do you know if Bill has changed his techniques since your FCG’s were done? What comments did he have regarding this? He offers 2 trigger jobs, one for $32.00 that is around 3 1/2 to 4 lbs. and another for more money that is much lighter. (I opted for the heavier to avoid this issue.) Do you know which ones you had done to your FCG’s? Also…what factory made your FCG’s, and was it the hammer, or trigger that wore to the point that it wouldn’t engage?
I’m going to contact Bill to discuss this further because I agree that this can’t happen in a serious gun, which mine is. This all being said, I think every type of reduced power/ “Crisp” trigger job will wear out. It’s only logical that if you remove metal to reduce the length of trigger pull before the “Surprise Break” that you’re getting closer to wearing that part out on the edge of trigger/ Hammer engagement. I know I have seen this on the 1911 platform as well. I’m hoping that there is an acceptable “Middle Ground”, and that Bill has altered his work accordingly with this type of concern being made known.
I’ll report back after conversing with Bill.
Tack
My FCGs were the heavier 3.5-4lb option, done by Bill pretty recently (6-7 months ago), so I would assume he’s using the same technique.
The group that went full auto was from an RRA LPK, the second one was from a CMT/Stag LPK.
I believe it was wear on the front engagement surface of the trigger that caused the malfunctions, but I can be 100% sure. All I know is that after following through with a shot (holding the trigger back), the hammer would fall when I would reset the trigger. This would lead to inadvertant bump firing from the shoulder, and strange looks at the range.
One issue that may be of importance was the fact that the RRA trigger (that went full auto) was brand spanking new out of the LPK bag when it was sent it Bill. I’ve speculated that it may be beneficial to shoot a new trigger for a few hundred rounds before a job like this, as the newly machined trigger/hammer surfaces will accumulate a bit of self-limiting wear as they break in.
Could doing a super crisp trigger job like this (with such a small amount of trigger/hammer engagement) on a new FCG that hasn’t accumulated this few thousandths of ‘break-in wear’ account for my problem? I’m not sure, but I’m going to continue my schedule of dry fire training on this FCG to see if that could be the case.
Either way, Bill’s trigger job has the highest cost to performance ratio of any other upgrade I’ve seen for an AR (recreational shooting, paper punching accuracy-wise). Whether it’s appropriate in a fighting gun remains to be seen.
I’m about 700 snaps into the trigger that Bill fixed with no issues yet. I’ll report back if I experience any.
Bill and I are trading emails about this issue, and the above mentioned trigger job going full auto. We’ve discussed a "raised surface on the disconnector issue, the softness of the disconnector compared to the other FCG parts, and proper lubrication to help reduce wear. I have asked him a few more questions that he and I are going to discuss on the phone tonight.
Most of my questions to Bill are about preventative maintenance on a FCG that has a 3-1/2 lb trigger job. Hopefully I will be able to report my findings later tonight after I talk to Bill. Right now I’m going to “Live Fire” test this trigger.
FWIW…I don’t think that a $32.00 shipped back to the user trigger job is the highest cost/ performance upgrade, especially if it works. I think that the new Timney single stage trigger at $200 is. But that’s just my $.02 worth.
I have 2 triggers from Bill, I put one through 2 courses, one being a super dave class…
i think its at or around 7500-8k and no problems…
I meant highest ratio of cost : performance, as in bang for your buck. There isn’t a whole lot you can do to an AR for $32 that makes such a huge improvement in how well one can shoot it.
Bitching about spending $32 on an AR would make me some kind of dick!
Interesting. Sounds promising in the durability department.
If you’re counting on a 200 yd. shot that is precisely placed, I think the “bang for the buck” is pretty important. I know that after running 200 rounds through my new trigger, it displayed some serious improvements over the stock trigger at longer ranges. I think any trigger will work within 50 yds.
I talked to Bill Springfield in detail tonight (per his invitation) about the longevity of the trigger jobs, and what to expect.
Bill first pointed out that the trigger and hammer are usually around a Rockwell Hardness of RC 50-55. This is very hard! The disconnector is usually around a Rockwell Hardness of RC 30. Much softer.
Bill recollected the above mentioned problem, and stated that there was a disconnector issue involved. It seems that some manufacturers stamp their disconnectors while other laser cut them. The stamping method sometimes leaves radius’s that are uneven, and causes problems. This is how he remembers the above issue (the disconnector had a raised bearing surface) which he fixed per his guarantee.
I asked a very pointed question about “Defensive Weapons” that have to work 100% of the time. The question was…“How many rounds should pass before someone does preventative maintenance I.e., replacing the hammer and trigger or disconnector”?
Bills’ answer was two-fold. His reply was that the disconnector should be tested every time you disassemble the weapon to make sure it’s doing its’ intended job. (This is in the manual by the way). This is done by opening up the lower, cocking the trigger by hand, squeezing the trigger (not letting it fall on the lower), keeping the trigger depressed, and cocking the hammer with your thumb again to make sure the disconnector allows for the trigger to re-set with the hammer. The hammer should not fall if the disconnector is doing its’ job.
The second part of the answer to the “Preventative Maintenance” question was fairly straight ahead. Bill stated that " the trigger and hammer are so hard that they should easily last between 8,000 to 10,000 rounds without any issue." (I remember these types of numbers on 1911 trigger jobs I had). However, he continued on…“the disconnector should probably be replaced every 3,000 to 5000 rounds depending on the quality of the OEM part.” Bill likes Colt, LMT, and Stag. He questioned the crudeness of DPMS, RRA, and the recent Bushmasters, although he believes that these manufacturers factory parts CAN be worked. (We’ve seen issues with these manufacturers on the “AR Comparison thread” that Rob did.)
Bill also stated that “I strive to have an overlap between the hammer and trigger of (5) 1,000ths of an inch where many only leave (1) 1,000th of an inch bearing surface to avoid any “Full Auto” related failures.”
One last point that Bill wanted to emphasize…“Proper lubrication is essential to not only the BCG on an AR, but also to a “Tuned Trigger”. The hammer/ trigger/ disconnector engagements must be properly lubricated to assure the longest life possible.” (Where have we heard this advice before? I have never lubed my hammer, trigger, and disconnector engagement surfaces on a regular basis.) The trigger in question, (IF it is the same one we are talking about) was dry when Bill received it, combined with a raised part on the disconnector that created excessive wear on the hammer/ trigger engagement. This is what Bill remembers, please don’t shoot the messenger!
One last point…Bill has reportedly done hundreds of trigger jobs from “Working Guns” to “Paper Punchers”, and the trigger in question was the first he has ever had returned because of “Full Auto” related failures. I think that everything is a matter of “numbers”. The more you do, the more chance of a potential mistake happening. Nobody’s perfect, and I’m not saying that Bill made a mistake on this one.
All of this being said…How many believe that a quality single stage trigger job of 3 1/2 lbs. to 4 lbs. is appropriate for a “defensive piece”, versus limping along with the gritty/ heavy factory triggers, and how long do you think the trigger job should last??? I’ll always remember Jeff Cooper saying that “all that is really needed are good sights, and a good trigger”. And yes, I know he was talking about the 1911. But, I believe it to be true for any weapon system.
Tack
Thanks for taking the time to do the research on this and sharing the info. 3.5-4 is really on the low end of what I would like to see. I’d be more comfortable with 4-5. Did Bill mention if he can teak it just a bit to fit the users request?
Does Bill S. have a email or web site?
I believe he could. Trigger weight from what I have seen is more associated with the poundage of the trigger spring more than the overlap, cut of the hammer and trigger angles, but I could be wrong about this on the AR platform. Give him a shout, and please report what you find out.
Here is Bill’s contact info:
Bill Springfield
wspringfield@comcast.net
719-548-1782
For me, I like the 3 1/2 to 4 lb range for defense. It matches what I have always had on my 1911’s. I’m not concerned about me “jumping on it” and having the engagement release prematurely. My concern has always revolved around the trigger not following after a round is fired creating a burst fire.
Tack
Yeah, that certainly sounds like mine. I never made a point to regularly lube the FCG.
Funny that you mention this, as I actually started hitting all of the critical points on the trigger group with a CLP soaked Q-tip after I got it back.
Wow. Hopefully I’m not starting one of those vast, unfounded internet myths that originate from a single post, stemming from some isolated incident. :eek:
If we start seeing threads on TOS titled “OMG Bill Springfield triggers are teh SUCK!!!11”, I’m going to feel pretty bad.:o
That really is quite impressive that my trigger was the only one he’d ever seen with such a failure, considering that there seem to be tons of guys on TOS that have his triggers. Working with hundreds of triggers, it’s only a matter of time before one comes across some manufacturing defect, or some combination of factors that make this happen.
I appreciate all the info.
You’re welcome!
I wouldn’t sweat what anyone else does on TOS. That is where most of the positive posts have come from on the internet, and I have yet to see a negative one about Bill’s work over there. I searched diligently, and couldn’t find any posts highlighting any problems. Just to keep it in check, I’m going to post my review there as well.
I think after talking to Bill, he’s an upstanding guy, and just like you have experienced, stands behind his work. Hopefully this has served as a learning experience (my intent) to everyone here. I know I learned a lot from my research and discussions with Bill. I would also believe that even this isolated instance would make Bill even better than he already is. He just seems like the kind of guy who accepts both the good and the bad admirably, and learns from it.
Tack
I want to resurrect an old thread…
I’m on the verge of sending my trigger to Springfield, because it’s intolerably creepy. I’m used a ratty M1 Carbine and a Springfield Armory M1A, and they’re both WAY better than my new AR.
I don’t want to spend $100+ on a 2-stage trigger, and 99% of what I’ve seen on the errornet endorses the Springfield trigger job.
There’s a guy on calguns.net saying that his Bill Springfield trigger job crapped out (went full auto) after 2,000 rounds or so. This seems to be another freak occurrance, but I just wanted to make sure.
Any comments, reviews, endorsements, or caveats about the Springfield trigger job?
TIA,
Ben
I’ve put about 375 rounds through a 4 lb Bill Springfield trigger job on a Stag FCG in the last two weeks, along with about 100 dry fire pulls. No issues whatsoever - very consistent and crisp.
1 week turnaround done in early August '08. He’ll get my next build’s FCG as soon as I replenish the bank account!
Pk
I Have 2,000 rounds on my Bill Springfield trigger job and it’s still very solid and crisp.
I don’t know the guy on calguns but there was one fellow that had a faulty (very soft metal) disconnector that caused an issue about 2 years ago. You need to find out if it’s the same guy or if this is a different occurance.
That’s why I’m asking!
It’s “Chunger” on CalGuns.net who says that his (actually, his wife’s) went full-auto after 2,000 rounds or so, it wasn’t even really clear that it was Springfield who had worked on his trigger.
These are the only mentions of problems that I’ve seen anywhere, so I’m telling Santa that I want this for X-mas…
Ben
I just got mine back and installed. I have no real complaints as of yet. I do wish I had some trigger weights as I’d like to see what it really measures out at once installed in my gun.
Like you, I had a hard time finding anyone with anything bad to say. Of course, I’m sure that the vast majority (like with any AR parts) are owned by people that never shoot them.
I’m expecting to run this carbine through a Jeff Gonzales class in February, and 2500 rounds in 3 days should give me a good idea of where it stands.
It should be noted that Bill also does trigger work on guns other than AR’s. He did a great job on my HK91 trigger pack, taking it from approx 12 lbs down to about 5 lbs and getting rid of the take up and over travel.