Best Brand For Civilian M4A2?

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

New to M4 and the Forum.

Reason I’m here, is because I got an M4A2 two months ago in .223 Remington for a number of reasons. It took me almost 2 years to be convinced of the rifle, and round’s, versatility and functionality; and several months to pay for it.

Now, I have learned–thanks to many fine folks HERE–my brand and my individual weapon has some problems, and this prior to firing for the first time.

I MUCH prefer the M4 configuration (collapsable/adjustable compo stock, birdcage carrying handle, 16" carbine barrel length, Izzy flash suppressor) to a “conventional” AR15.

I have not yet given up on my unfired M4; but I am VERY curious as to more experienced M4/AR15 fans’s opinions, as I pursue another thread about my current M4.

Y’all all take care and be safe.

Mick

2

Welcome Mick!

You didn’t state what rifle you bought. If we know, we can advise you on what you might want to do to it to bring it up to par.

3

birdcage carrying handle,

that is something new ?? got a photo ? :smiley: :smiley:

4

I think somebody missed a comma.

5

I think MicK has picked up incorrect terminology, judging from his other post on this topic and the inclusion of the “Izzy Flash Hider”. Also from Mick’s other post, this is a BM carbine, with the usual BM issues.

Mick-
The rear sight is called simply that, the rear sight. There is no such thing as a “birdcage” carry handle. The “birdcage” is usually used to describe an A1 flash-hider, i.e.- birdcage flashhider. It is also not an M4A2. The latest M4 is the M4A1, which is different than the M4 in that it has a full-auto trigger group. There are several generations of M4s, some that came with fixed A2 style sights and standard furniture, up through those that have a rail system, flat-top upper, and a heavy barrel. A2/A3 designations by Bushmaster are simply names for specific models in their line-up that relate to whether they have fixed A2 style sights or a removable sight (which some call A3, though not all A3s have it, nor did it orignate with the M16A3).

If I were going to buy a new gun, knowing what I know now, I would do pretty much what this thread advocates.

6

Thanks for taking the time to educate, F2S.

7

As F2S said, from my other one thread here, I’ve got a Bushmaster M4A2 (their designation). While trying to learn about it, and from the other thread, I know that the castle nut on the adjustable stock isn’t staked at ALL, and the carrier bolt stakings are very minimal.

All the wonderful, and appreciated, comments to me as a new fan of the .223 Remington “Little Black Rifle” are helping. As I have time, I’m trying to see and save all the links you fine folks are giving me.

Here’s my Bushy:


I’m likely going to have to see how it works, and find sources to make the necessary modifications… I’m pretty meat and potatoes on firearms–LOVING a basic 1911 platform for my carry weapon, as opposed to other platfoms that I own, and have or have shot… but, that situation assumed, I really appreciate the advice, and the links. Rifles are complicated to me, but a person needs at least one… in a good caliber (I also have a rugged old Chinese SKS in 7.62x39mm, a .30-cal, which I prefer)… but on the other hand…

… selling the Bushy is a possibility: it hasn’t been fired yet, I’m still learning about this platform. I like the collapsable/adjustable stock on the M4 version as opposed to the AR15 version of the platform. It took a dealer almost two years to convince me that the .223 Remington is a viable, versatile round; he’s former Army (and a rifle sharpshooter), and he convinced me. But for all my life, since the early 80s, I’ve had great luck with every firearm I’ve owned: all 100%, from my Berettas and Smith to my current Taurus, Rugers, Springers, Colts, RIA, Mossbergs current and past, and Chinese SKS. The Bushy, I’m not so sure of. And that saddens me. On the other hand, if I keep it, it might be made to be serviceable and reliable.

THANK YOU ALL for your help. Like my 1911 forum, you folks here are the salt of the earth. It’s folks like you that helped me learn so much about my favored pistol platform (I’m considered extremely knowledgeable on that, now, thanks to a lot of folks on that other forum)… and I hope to enter this learning journey on the AR15/M4 rifle platform as well. I have–thanks to y’all. Continue to comment! I’m reading and checking all of this, folks.

Y’all take care. Talk soon.
Mick

8

i know…, i just had to make a “funny” of it :wink:

9

Mick glad to see you here and glad to see you are getting into this platform. You are right about this forum there is a weath of knowledge here. There are industry pros here that are more than helpful.

10

if i were you, i would sell it and take that same money and buy a smith and wesson ar15 with removable carry handle. better solution is to buy an lmt, noveske, or colt. though you can get a new stripped upper with flat top and do a few improvments to make that rifle viable.

11

Mick if you have reservations about that rifle sell it and get a Colt 6920 or a Noveske. I know you have some premium 1911’s and know about quality. I go with Colt because that is all I have ever known but people here with a lot of of knowledge speak highly of Noveske. Either way you will have one that is good to go and you will have the utmost confidence in.

12

It’s hard to beat a Colt 6920. There are ways to mix and match your way to a “better” or “almost as good” gun for less money, but it’s still hard to beat a 6920.

You might also look at the N4 Light Basic and the N4 Light Recce Basic. Both come with parts that many would consider “upgrades” from the Colt (Vltor stock, Tango Down pistol grip, Troy rear sight) as well as a barrel that is arguably more accurate than a stock Colt and with a profile that certainly makes much more logical sense than an M4 profile but at the same weight.

13

My personal observation, given the info you’ve provided, is that you’ll likely never utilize your AR in a manner that will cause you any issue. However, if by chance you plan to put it through it’s paces and feed it over a 1000 rounds in a two day carbine course, then I would suggest things like staking the castle nut and proper staking of the carrier key (and a few of the other enhancements you see mentioned on this forum).

14

That is a good point. depending on use things like staking may never become an issue and if they do it won’t have any more serious consequences than ruining a day at the range. And, as said, even then applying the proper staking can go a long way towards alleviating even these issues.

15

I have the exact same weapon in an A3, and after about 3,000 rounds now it has never had a single issue. No FTF’s, no FTE’s, no loose parts. Almost all of the 3,000 rounds have been 5.56.

If you don’t already know, stay on the look out for good priced 5.56 ammo as opposed to standard .223. Your gun should shoot them fine, having a 5.56 chamber. If not, don’t tolerate it. But, make sure the ammo is up to par before jumping to any conclusions.

16

THANK YOU ALL SO FAR. I’m humbled, and honored: you folks are every bit as fine as my friends and teachers over on a couple of M1911 pistol forums.

Basically: I DO like the platform… having admittedly resisted it for many years. I DO like the two variants: .223 Remington and 5.56X45mm NATO M193–which from YOU folks, I’ve learned are just slightly different, but will function in an AR15 or M4. I resisted the caliber for many years as well.

I’m trying to decide, prior to firing the Bushy, what my course of action will be. I’m taking EVERYTHING everyone is providing me into consideration. It is SO appreciated.

I may have to keep the weapon. It’s true that I’m probably not going to go through 5000 rounds in some kind of combat course. I know that makes a difference. That said, I’m said that Bushmaster didn’t stake the castle nut: that IS a problem, with few firings! Because I know if it starts loosening, you’ve got to have a special tool to tighten it back up.

The bolt carrier is one of those 50/50 situations. Sad that the staking isn’t adequate; yet, on the other hand… know from YOU folks what proper staking there should look like (and I used to be a mechanic, I knew mine wasn’t adequate for what it’s intended to do, secure the bolts from loosening in recoil and firing) but also, y’all have told me about a gentleman who can “re-stake” carriers that are deficient.

Buddy at work has a Bushmaster! AR15. He’s had no probs, but he states he’s only fired about 100 rounds through it. I’m probably going to take my own M4 carrier to work (“they” won’t know what it is, LOL) and show it to him. Just in case his needs attention. He’s an M1A kinda guy–.30 cal (7.62X51mm, and used to have an AK47 in 7.62X39mm, like my SKS)… but appreciates the utility of the .223/5.56 round.

I’m thinking, mulling over my options. Part of me would like to sell BOTH the Bushy as unfired, and my SKS, well-used but solid and reliable… and go for another brand M4. I really do like it, and generally it ain’t gonna be a hunting rifle. The other part, says take some folks’s advice, see if I can get my Bushy up to snuff (that Cliff gentleman’s company, in re: the carrier bolts)… don’t know about the castle nut, though. Looked at a “universal M4/AR15 tool” at Midway last night… similar to my Wilson Combat M1911 Multi-Tool… Hard choices.

Believe me, I really appreciate the positive responses here! I don’t have a lot of disposable income, and I’m considering EVERYTHING y’all are sharing with me. It’s just a hard situation for ME, 'cause I’ve never had a firearm (and I’ve had, and have many) that had any problems. Regardless of the usage.

Like y’all say, GOOD AMMO is critical to me: the reason I ran circles with a Springer Mil-Spec and Ruger P90 around EVERY OTHER GUN–including a Thompson Contender–several years ago, is 'cause I use GOOD AMMO. Magazines, I know, from my 1911 experience, are also crucial. I’ve ordered several Magpuls. 30-rounders. I DO believe for me, the .223/5.56 is a GREAT caliber… so, I’m working on getting, or making, a serviceable, reliable rifle that shoots this.

Y’all take care. You folks are THE BEST here, for this platform. Thank you. I’m into it, but I’ve got a lot to learn. Y’all are so good to help me learn.

Mick

17

Welcome to the ‘Black Rifle’ club Mick! Congrats on your first AR! In re: to the castle nut, you can stake that yourself with a medium size punch and a hammer. Make sure it is as tight as it can go either using a castle nut wrench or by using a large flat tip screwdriver and hitting with a hammer to move the castle nut a little at a time till tight. Just get a little square of metal from the plate to be inside the little squares on your castle nut (usually 3 squares but on all of my AR’s only 2 are stakeable as one is always in a bad position). The tip of the punch should almost fill up the square in the castle nut and then place more of the tip toward the end plate so when you strike it with the hammer, metal from the end plate fills up the square on the castle nut. Best of luck to you brother and happy shooting!:cool:

18

Nice Bushmaster Mick. I’ve had one for a couple of years now and I love everything about it.

19

I partially field stripped my M4 last night, and took the bolt carrier to work today.

The staking there is indeed minimal, BUT… this is looking at it from the “back” as it rides in the rifle… on the LEFT side of the two allen screws, the staking “pings” actually make contact with the striations in the head of the screws. The RIGHT side, they have no contact. Possibly, it might hold. It’s pretty dicey. I examined it with a magnifying glass under flourescent lighting. I showed it to my buddy, who has that Bushy AR15… and was surprised, that he’s never cleaned it or taken it down “that far (his words upon seeing me with the bolt carrier in his office)”… to me, I’ve minimally field stripped it to get to the bolt carrier. It was odd to me that he’d never seen his upper assembly bolt carrier. He did find it interesting, though, on this staking issue; of course, he has an AR15 stock on his, not like my M4.

I still think Bushmaster did a “slop job” on my bolt carrier, despite the fact that it may “hold” as is. It appears that the employee who was staking the bolt carrier, was trying to “finess” it. And it didn’t totally work… but it may have FUNCTIONALLY worked, due to the left stakings. I don’t know.

The castle nut definitely has NO staking. That’s not good, as I’ve said.

I’m still trying to decide what to do. I’m still MUCHLY appreciating your input and instruction. E98T, thanks for this response in re: doing the castle nut myself… I do worry about the finish. But, I keep mine lubed and clean, not overlubed. Safetyhit’s input, causes me to think my applications, may make my Bushy viable. Got to do something about that darn castle nut, though, if not the bolt carrier.

Other than these two issues, the weapon seems solid. Finish is good, I’ve racked two mags (30 rounds) through it, with no problems. Internal finish looks good. My work buddy’s AR15 is dead on at 200 yds, without any obstructions, although for game he prefers his .30 cals… My dealer was an Army marksman with his M16 (Colt) at 600 meters, max; he LOVES our “little black rifle”! I DO like the sight pattern on the A2 version: VERY easy to get on target quickly, it seems, with the front sight and the little “tang” in the top of the rear sight in the “handle”. Most of my experience is with “iron” sights, not scopes anyways…

texasyid, rob_s, THANK YOU on the good Colt’s model; my Colt’s 1911s are ALL excellent. I will remember this.

My Bushy may be “salvageable” or “keepable”. But doesn’t mean I won’t go for a Colt’s 6920. I’m liking the caliber/s, for what I want them for.

I just can’t tell you folks how MUCH I appreciate all this input! I am honored and humbled, and just flat-out thankful. You are all helping me more than ANY of my real-time gun buddies, who are either misinformed or erroneous on their “knowledge”.

Oh… btw… my Magpull 30-rd mags were delivered to the apartment office today; I’ll pick them up tomorrow. Regardless of my rifle/s, I am certain I’m going to keep at least ONE M4 version. If not more than one…

Y’all take care. Talk to y’all soon…

Mick

20

Mick, you are very gracious. Thank-you.

I have to say at this point that you may be over thinking the issue, with all due respect. If the weapon continues to preform well for you, maybe re-stake the two keys if need be and move on. Unless you plan to attend a course or otherwise just run the gun very heavy, you should be fine. Based upon my personal experience with my M4 Izzy, at this time I would give it the benefit of the doubt unless forced to do otherwise.