Benchmark Times to Shoot For With Your AR15 - An M4C Collaboration Project

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
61

I wanted to follow-up on a great drill C-Grunt posted:

[b]Quote Originally Posted by C-grunt View Post
Here is a drill we run at work. We call it the Navy SEAL drill as one of our officers who is a former SEAL introduced it to us.

Target is a silhouette with an 8 inch circle target zone. We use a TQ-19-AZ target.
Distance is 50 yards.
3 magazines with 5 rounds each.

Drill starts standing. On the buzzer fire 5 rounds. Reload. Then move to intermediate position (ie kneeling). Fire 5 rounds. Reload. Move to prone. Fire 5 rounds.

Par time is 25 seconds. Every second over is +2 seconds. Every shot out of the 8 inch circle is +5 seconds. Every shot off of silhouette is +10 seconds.

A good time is under 40 seconds[/b]

I was introduced to the drill in a different manner. I found out it was Jeff Gonzalez at Trident-Concepts. He scores it like golf and classifies students as UNQ, MM, SS, EX based on scores.

Target with 8 inch scoring ring.

Par time is 25 seconds - which equals 0 points.

Add or subtract points (or strokes if you think golf) for the following:

OVER Par Time (25 seconds) = add 2 points for each second. Lets say you shot it perfect, but in 27 seconds. That would be 0+(2x2) = 4 points

UNDER Part Time (25 seconds) = subtract 1 point for each second under par. Let’s say you shot it perfect in 23 seconds. That would be 0-(2x1) = -2 points (You Arnold Palmer, you)

MISSES (outside 8 in ring) - add 5 points for each miss. Lets say you shot it in 27 seconds and had 2 misses. That would be 0 + 4 (time penalty) + 10 (miss penalty) = 14 points

Here is how the points stack up:

25 to 40 = MM

10 to 24 = SS

under 10 = EX

To me, scoring it this way adds another dimension of fun and competitiveness if you are shooting with buddies.

Currently, I’m barely rolling MM - 38.2 with 2 misses. My misses were standing (pretty sure), My time problem was going prone, I’m old and my doc has been after me to replace my right knee, I’d imagine watching me go prone is a hoot, but I’m working on it. It was kind of embarrassing (I was alone, but still) I demo all kinds of prone positions, but I take my time getting into them because of my knee. I also take all the 25-50 yard shots in action pistol standing up, this drill will cause me to work that also.

Another thing I noticed, I was shooting these on NRA AP-1 targets, which have a four inch bull, I found myself shooting slower because of ‘aim small, miss small.’ I think I’d actually be faster with an IDPA/IPSC target with an 8 inch circle penciled onto the target and just hold upper center mass.

Soon as I hit EX I’m going to be all over someone to design a morale patch.

62

Man quit worrying about the patch and go shoot more. It’s not that hard to shoot it clean! :wink:

63

Says the whipper snapper with the good wheels;) What the geezers lack in speed we’ll have to make up for with accuracy.

64

At 45 my mind says I’m a whipper snapper, but my body says i’m more of a geezer! :smiley:

I agree about the accuracy part…

65

Drill #1 Modified Navy Qual

Quote Originally Posted by C-grunt View Post
Here is a drill we run at work. We call it the Navy SEAL drill as one of our officers who is a former SEAL introduced it to us.

Target is a silhouette with an 8 inch circle target zone. We use a TQ-19-AZ target.
Distance is 50 yards.
3 magazines with 5 rounds each.

Drill starts standing. On the buzzer fire 5 rounds. Reload. Then move to intermediate position (ie kneeling). Fire 5 rounds. Reload. Move to prone. Fire 5 rounds.

Par time is 25 seconds. Every second over is +2 seconds. Every shot out of the 8 inch circle is +5 seconds. Every shot off of silhouette is +10 seconds.

A few minor mods based on ability and location at the time. This was shot was a 16" rifle gas length (15" rail) and Vortex 1-4 optic. The distance was a slightly less than 50 yards, I would call it 45, which might not sound like much of a difference, but it is. The trigger is a stock USGI type semi auto trigger. I was using a comp, which worked very well. I don’t have much question that a “good” trigger would have made a world of difference. The magazines were NOT grabbed from secured pouches, rather, they were laid out with easy access. In addition to the above, I was shooting a steel 8x11 target which obviously gave a lot more room for error. Last, but certainly not least, I wasn’t able to go prone. I fired 5 standing, 5 kneeling, and then went back to standing (reloads in between). I don’t feel all that bad about standing instead of going prone as prone shooting is easier for just about everyone. Anyway, not exactly according to the rules, but the variations are out in the open.

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Stick that is good shooting. Standing is defiantly the slowest (for most people). Hard to get an apples to apples comparison given the mag placement and such but that’s still undoubtedly quick. My heart is so happy to see people discussing shooting on this forum :slight_smile:

I just like giving 26Inf a hard time. He’s the Mr Wilson to my Dennis the Menace!

Thanks for sharing man. Didn’t mean to call you out in the other thread. Always happy to get more feedback as to what folks are doing to get more proficient.

67

Magnification, mag placement, distance, and slightly larger target certainly come into play, but the shooting felt good and no fumbles or “oops” with mag reloads. Some days it seems like I can’t miss, some days I wonder why bullets hate me.

The comp made a big difference. Once the sights stay on target when the shots break, it is a different game. I need to shoot the drill with honest distances and sizes, and with an A2 muzzle device.

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Or, as a shorter version, “Bring What Ya Got and Fight What Ya Brought.” :slight_smile:

That said, maybe once we get this thing up and running it might be a good idea to have divisions for “Basic Service Rifle” vs. “Anything Goes” like how IPSC set up the Limited-10 division so that single-action single-stack guys running factory guns didn’t have to compete on an un-level field against the tricked-out “raceguns” of Open.

69

One drill I try to run (literally and figuratively) is a 100Y sprint followed by 10 hits on an 8" piece of steel from prone. You absolutely need an open or private range for this drill. Really makes you focus on breathing and good trigger control immediately following the 100Y sprint. Start at the target (round chambered and rifle on safe) and on the buzzer turn and sprint to the 100Y line. Drop to prone and fire 10 rounds. I like using steel for immediate feedback.

A par time of 30 seconds is what I usually try to hit. Make no mistake: To hit that time par you are trucking on that 100Y sprint. If that time is not possible no sweat; just adjust the par time accordingly so you have ~10 seconds once you hit the 100Y line to drop to prone and make the shots. If it takes you 30 seconds to run 100Y, make your par 40-45 seconds. If it takes you 45 seconds to sprint 100Y, make the par 55 seconds-1 minute. For each missed shot add 1 second to your time.

70

Great feedback !
Thanks.

I think the right to left bit is taught more than diagonal movements and such because of the simplicity and safety of doing so with a large number of people all on the firing line during a class. When there are 15-30 people, it can get a little cluttered on the firing line.
This is why I enjoy going out and shooting by myself or with a partner or two in the wilderness, you can utilize a much larger range of movements with safety not being as much of a concern.

Movement is a huge factor that I believe many people overlook, so is stress.

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If anybody has non-topical personal bickering to do, please take my word for it that your PM function works just fine.

So, if you simply MUST wipe your ass, do it out of the public eye, not on the drapes.

72

I can’t believe it…I either broke or dislocated my left hand ring finger at the first joint today. I was going to give the MNQ a shot this Sat. I’ll see how it feels Friday…it’s my strong hand.

73

Ok, gotta chance to try the MNQ drill again…I have yet to shoot it clean, but have been able to get 14 in the 8" ring. Best time with penalties was 42 secs. Or using Jeff Gonzales scoring method of a 17 over par. Proper breathing was the biggest adjustment I made to improve accuracy. I found my self holding my breath through all 5 shots trying to “go faster”. After slowing down just a bit and breathing properly, shooting on the exhale, my standing accuracy improved. More work to do.

The gloves and knee pads helped at my range which is very rocky and full of stickers. They didn’t help me with dropping to prone in a fire ant hill though! :eek:

74

Ran the MNQ today but with stand, kneel, stand. Let’s just say it can only get better. I was shooting a 10.5, suppressed with an Aimpoint H1 and an Alg Act trigger. I don’t have a shot timer so would estimate half the shots were over that par time. First one I ran was 42 seconds [emoji51] with 7 out of the 8". That puts me at around 85-90 seconds by my math. Went quicker on the second go around at 38 seconds but accuracy was worse to the point I’m not even going to bother adding it up.

I think trying to go quick really affected me. Trigger manipulation suffered as a result as I had a lot of shots pulled low left. I had one mag not lock back so lost time there. Mag changes were not smooth. I was picking them up from the floor so obviously lost time there. I don’t have carriers but will wear cargo pants next time so I can at least have them in a pocket.

All in all, pretty miserable but it is a benchmark so gives me something to beat.

75

I found that if I don’t concentrate on exhaling and then pulling the trigger, especially standing, my accuracy really suffers. Its also amazing how much stress a shooter puts on themselves when being timed. mag changes aren’t as smooth, proper trigger pulling becomes slapping, etc.

76

Remembering to breathe, with the timer running, becomes difficult- especially with movement.
While many have what approaches contempt for competitive shooting- I have found that if anything can go wrong, if any equipment is gonna fail, it’ll happen in a match/competitive situation.

77

Now that I think about it, I would bet money I was holding my breathe. The timer definitely induces a level of stress. My plan is to run it again but go deliberatley slow and concentrate on breath, trigger pull and smoothing out the mag changes. I’ve spent way too much time at the bench this year after I picked up a new bolt gun. It definitely shows.

78

Wyatt Earp used to say “slow is smooth, smooth is fast–you need to learn to shoot slow in a hurry.” Meaning, keep focusing on doing the basics smoothly and correctly, and the speed will come with experience. (QV/corollary: “Practice does NOT make perfect–perfect practice makes perfect.”)

79

One of my favorites has always been the 1/2 and 1/2 drill from Mike Pannone/Viking Tactics.

3 strings of fire, 10 rounds each, 30 rounds total
1st string is from 20 yards - 10 sec par time
2nd string from 10 yards - 5 sec par time
3rd string from 5 yards - 2.5 sec par time
Scoring zone is the A zone of a USPSA target but a better challenge is a 3x5 card.

The A zone is pretty big and the par times are generous so I usually run this drill as a “30 in 10 drill”. The par times would be more like this:

20 yards - 5 secs
10 yards - 3 secs
5 yards - 2 secs

Sometimes I throw out the 5 yard line and just run 2 strings at 10 yards.

Here is some video:
[video=youtube_share;K4hVqG0aTnY]https://youtu.be/K4hVqG0aTnY[/video]

80

Despite the comp used, and after running it again today a few more times, I am convinced Stick is a ninja! Shaved a few seconds off my time to below 40 seconds and lowered my overall time by about 7 seconds to 78.6. On that run, a funny thing happened. I usually shoot pistol reloads from a mag in my weak side pocket. On both reloads I went to my pocket and got half way through pulling my wallet out before I realized and went to my cargo pocket for the AR mag. So, still slow but a little progress that I’ll take. Another interesting thing was a friend ran it with his 1-4 and shaved a bunch of time off when he went from 4x to 1x. Going to try it with my 16" and red dot as a opposed to the suppressed 10.5" that I have used so far. I think a shot timer is in my future :slight_smile: