Ben Lenett

General General Discussion
1

I found Mr. Lenett’s remarks very interesting for an “industry insider.”

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=80682&an=0&page=0#80682

I don’t see myself wanting to train with any of the guys at 10-8 in the future if they don’t distance themselves from Mr. Lenett and his opinions. Zumbo I believe said he was tired. Based on the posting time, it looks as if Mr. Lenett had time to sleep on it.

I am interested in what you guys and gals think.

Edit: Please do not name individual companies. They have nothing to do with this.

2

He’s a member here. Maybe he’ll answer for himself. I have no opinion on him either way.

3

I’m not going to comment over there, since doing so would no doubt result in my account getting locked…but that’s the TBL mentality at its best. They say they’re for the 2nd Amendment, but if you actually scratch through the veneer there’s still an elitist “guns for me, but not for thee” mentality underneath it all.

Do I think there are some people running around with guns that shouldn’t have them, even though they aren’t legally barred from possession? Absolutely. HOWEVER, I DO NOT support disarming them, because idiots doing what idiots do is the cost of a free society.

Let me be clear here: I’m willing to put up with a Cho so that a Jeanne Assam isn’t disarmed. If you don’t agree with that, well, I don’t think you’re truly on the side of freedom.

4

I hope he will flesh out his points. I look forward to his thoughts if he cares to share them.

5

My standard line is that I’d rather take my chances with someone who’s misusing freedom than one who’s misusing power.

6

Absolutely the point and exactly what the Founding Fathers had in mind.

M_P

7

The fundamental point that the ABC segment is missing is that the population of this country and this world is not made up of ONLY “regular citizens”.

College campus anti-gun laws/rules are keeping cops, Marines, soldiers, DSS, and highly trained civilians from carrying guns.

Places like NY, with their stupid gun laws, are also keeping qualified and highly trained people from carrying. While I doubt that the Binghamton Civic Center would have had any experienced shooters in-house, all it takes is one “golden BB” to end the killing.

Ben is probably right that 90% or more of non-trained, non-professional shooters would crumble under stress.

That’s why it’s extremely important to get out and set your mind towards not being one of those who does crumble under an active shooter stress level.

8

So what? How about this: Why don’t we restrict flying to professional pilots, or teaching to professional teachers? No home schooling, no General Aviation. This way, only those professional enough to handle a Glock Foty will be walking around with guns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj4yUpR1PB0

9

Ben’s point, and the point I just reiterated is that 90% of regular citizens will crumble under the pressure. The sentiment stands on its own merit.

I made no other statements about limiting anything. So calm down and stow your anger.

10

To the OP of this thread did you contact Ben directly to question him on his comments? It would have been best to made contact with him directly.

11

I think Ben makes some good and valid points.

My issues are when LEO’s abuse their color and authority of the law for their own agendas or motives.

FULL DISLOSURE.

12

Why are we talking about him over here? I see on the forum page he is online here now.

While I don’t envy you pro guys who have been lucky enough to weave your jobs into your hobbies, you have to watch what you say, in writing, with your job title at the bottom of your post. Eagle should have given him a class and made him take a test on his 1A rights and how they can be missused.

13

I have to agree on both points.

I have been an avid competitive handgunner for over 30 years; NRA Bullseye and Action Pistol, IPSC, IDPA, PPC, bowling pin tournaments, etc. Though no competition can replicate the stress of being shot at, it does provide a glimpse of extreme difficulty of staying focused on the front sight and controlling each pull of the trigger. And of course before that, the basic marksmanship skills of sight alignment and trigger pull to deliver accurate fire. As a NRA pistol instructor, I have seen my share of people who struggle with just the basic marksmanship skills.

So out of all of those civilians who actively carry concealed, what percentage of them have the training/ability to competently defend themselves with a handgun? I don’t know that number, but if it were only 10% I would not be surprised.

All of that said, I think government should keep their hands off our constitutional rights. But if a federal CCW license was devised that would be good for all 50 states and require a background check, regsitration of the pistol(s) to be carried and training/testing, I personally would go for it. After having had a CCW in New York, the feds already have my fingerprints and all the background info and I suspect I could pass any training/testing they could throw at me.

And if this was to come to pass and I was unfortunate enough to be caught among the sheep being shot at by some madman, I can assure you that the return fire would be a bitch.

14

I can see Ben’s point.

Before I went into LE, I truly believed that I was more capable with a firearm than I actually was. Then, before I went to my first handgun course on my own dime, I truly believed that I was a great pistol shot and knew enough to do everything I needed to do…then, before I ever went into a shoot house, I truly believe that I already knew how do to everything I needed to do in that house live fire…

I was wrong.

I believe that what Ben is trying to say is that mindset and training are more important than firearms and when you have the firearm without the mindset and training, you have likely made the situation worse.

I forget who said it, but it went along the lines of “Owning a gun does not make you a gunfighter, it makes you a gun owner”. That is very true. Using a firearm under stress, target identification and descrimination in real time, knowing your background, breaking tunnel vision, ect…those are next to impossible for trained users. I have had tunnel vision myself and I knew it was happening. I felt it, saw it, and realized it…and it still happened.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that every time I see a “Who makes a size 3XL plate carrier” or “look at my new Desert Eagle CCW that I’m going to open carry today” thread, it makes me worry more about the nuckleheads carrying legally owned firearms than the off chance that I might run into a criminal.

Now, having said all of that…I don’t think it is workable to have mando training in today’s political climate without someone from a certain political party trying to use it as a backdoor ban. That would be worse…

So, where does that leave us… We do need training and we should all go get it without it being mando…but people won’t do it. But, we can’t make it mando without someone trying to use it as a ban.

It is a bad situation. Making the best of that bad situation, I would up the requirements for CCW and leave everything else as it is.

15

You have to take a written and practical test to get a driver’s license, register your car, and hold insurance to drive a private vehicle. OK, that’s fair – I can drive anywhere in the US and many nations overseas with my current license. I can rent a vehicle anywhere I fly.

I don’t believe licensing is the solution, but if it were forced I want that kind of flexibility!

Most folks NEVER take any other kind of driver’s training after elementary driver’s ed in high school (high speed, foul weather, 4-wheel drive, vehicle recovery, Commercial Driver’s License, coach, limo, long vehicle, trailer, etc.).

People doing their make-up, talking on the cell phone, drinking, breast-feeding while driving, multi-lane driving (without signals) and driving 10 MPH slower than flowing traffic in the passing lane are signs that we should never underestimate the power of stupid. There are still folks out there driving with revoked licenses or without licenses at all.

Barring or restricting ownership rankles me to the center of my being.

I have to take CCW training, but the state my documents are from allows carry in 33 states. I don’t want to have to take separate training to own a bolt gun, an “Assault Weapon”, a magazine-fed semiautomatic pistol holding more than ten rounds, a home defense weapon, or anything else. Leave me the hell alone.

“We have four boxes used to guarantee our liberty: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.” -Theodore Roosevelt

16

I did take (and pass) the test

So I understand that at the very least he has a right to voice his opinion;)

The fact that I happen to disagree with him on at least part of his opinion (mandatory training) is something I can separate from what I think about him as a person and a trainer

Good skill to have:D

17

I’ll go with your stat and advance the corollary: that 90% of spree killers and/or terrorists will crumble when met with anything more than cowering submission.

I think it’s a little silly to imagine that every gunman or wrongdoer is going to have a steely kamikaze mindset, bolstered by extensive training (the kind of training deemed necessary by some before another is even capable of defending one’s self with a firearm), and assisted by great good fortune needed to carry out their attacks. There is a reason terrorism chooses soft targets, and if we make those soft targets just a little less soft, we can make their job quite alot harder.

Also neglected is the deterrent effect of knowing that one person, even just one, among the flock of intended victims may just NOT go down so easily.

I read of dozens of examples every week where normal average citizens use firearms to deter crime, stats which dwarf the number of those injured during good-faith efforts to interdict a violent crime. None of those people are likely to have had extensive training in gunfighting

18

Is it, really? A “bad” situation?

I guess I am missing all the news reports of carnage resulting from law-abiding citizens using firearms in good faith efforts to prevent or deter crime.

All I am hearing are hysterical hypotheticals on what “could” happen in some worst case scenario.

The same arguments have been used to argue against CCW, and yet the bloodbaths on our streets, resulting from citizens who lack the skill or judgment to use firarms properly, NEVER HAPPEN.

Cops need to remember that there is a huge percentage of tthe population they never come into contact with, unless they are giving us a speeding ticket.

19

It is often said that the primary purpose of the 2A is not duck hunting.

It is not often said, however, that the primary purpose of the 2A is not defending one’s self from burglars and lunatics either.

The 2A acknowledges a fundamental human right to bear arms. The founding fathers recognized the need to enumerate this right so that the populace would retain access to the big red reset button. This was not, is not, and will not ever be negotiable.

Those arguing the merits and consequences of the 2A without taking that into consideration are either ill-informed or disingenuous. We don’t need to run around saber-rattling about it, but arguing that armed citizens aren’t effective enough against criminals just isn’t going to cut it. Nor do some of his suggestions - registration and licensing are the path to confiscation. If you give the government the power to screw something up, they will eventually do it.

20

The issue is that gun ownership is a right, not a privilege like driving a car on public roads.

Should we require literacy tests for book ownership? Or journalism degrees in order to write an article? How about religion? The argument can be made that some religions are harmful, should we require people to affirm that they aren’t a fundamentalist? Certainly in order to enjoy 4th amendment rights people should first consent to an initial search of all their property in order to keep bad apples from taking advantage of it.