That’s what I was thinking. The average 3gunner would probably dole out more abuse.
I’d give the DD Slim rail a look too…
I only have experience with one DD Lite III and the reason I like LaRue over them is: The DD Lite III I had was so sharp it had to be covered with covers and/or handled with gloves. That thing was ridiculous sharp.
I had a RIS II that was the same way until I dehorned every edge on it with a set of tiny diamond files (took about two days bored at work).
I have a MK18 for patrol use; I do not known a KMR. I’ve had the displeasure of deploying a heavy 16" AR for extended periods and the weight got old, fast. I think you’d likely notice the weight savings benefits of a KMR more than you’d notice the durability benefits of a heavier rail.
Sadly from what I have observed very few police officers put 500 rounds a year through anything they carry on duty.
In my experience (20 years Law Enforcement, Field Training Officer, Firearms Instructor) the only time about 95% of police officers shoot is when they are ordered to qualify.
I know the crowd on this forum makes up the most of the other 5% of people who know that proficiency with firearms will bring you home and insure the people you are sworn to protect go home to their families.
To stay on topic I would take the EAG in a heartbeat. I do not see 95% of officers on patrol abusing their rifles, rifles actually have to be handled to be abused.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Op,
Keep it simple if you ask me. We use BM 16" flat top patrol rifles (sigh), with Aimpoint PROs. I added a VTAC padded two point sling and X300U light using a Mossie midnight mount. It’s relatively light and does the job. If I could change anything, it would be to replace the rifle with a BCM in a similar format (Change the gas length to midlength and use a lightweight profile barrel). The rugged reliability of the standard front sight post is hard to beat.
We end up totting these around more than shooting them. In the end, you have to also have to assume that you could lose the rifle for a while in the event of an on-duty shooting. Keep it dependably economical and maybe have two guns.
At a different department I carried my own rifle being this:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-LIGHT-WEIGHT-Upper-Receiver-p/bcm-urg-mid-16lw.htm
with BCM blem lower.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Lower-Receiver-Groups-s/203.htm
I added Magpul Moe handguard, Troy fixed rear sight, sling, light, and Aimpoint. It’s still one of my favorite rifles.
I carry my personally owned/Departmentally approved rifle at work. The upper is a BCM 14.5" EWL-f with a 13" KMR hand guard. It has the BCM gunfighter muzzle break pinned on, an Aimpoint T-1 that I had from a previous rifle and a surefire 300 lumen scout light. I supervise of our agencies canine unit (18 canine teams). For my needs from a Patrol Rifle, this setup works great. I use it a lot when covering one of my handlers while they are conducting a track for an armed felon. As a canine track involves a lot of sprinting when the track is strong. A light and responsive gun wins for me.
But when newer officers want to purchase and setup their own Parol Rifle, I show them a Colt 6920 I own that has The MagPul MOE sl stock and hand guard, an Aimpoint PRO, a piece of MagPul’s cantilever rail on the hand guard to hold a pistol light such as the X300u or the Streamlight TLR-1. Light and effective enough for their needs. As most officers are not that interested in guns, this setup is very functional for their needs. They usually come to me thinking they need to buy a quad rail just to mount a light. Once they see the weight savings and price savings, they are sold on the MOE hand guard.
My experience supports this as well.
As far as the durability of the KMR rail…I don’t own one. I like the idea of keeping my weapons as lightweight and as possible. If my money wasn’t already spent, I would use one of these rails and a .625 diameter barrel. Kyle Defoor doesn’t seem to me to be particularly gentle with his gear. If the KMR rail is sturdy enough for his needs I would buy one without hesitation
I asked DeFoor about his KMR and he said it has held up fine was the best handguard he’d ever used…
I switched my duty rifle to a BCM 14.5" ELW midlength barrel w/pinned BCM comp, KMR 13, Aimpoint T-1 early this year. Chronic tendinitis in both elbows was the motivating factor in seeking out a lighter carbine for duty use. My department issues Sig 516s but allows personally owned/department approved carbines. I can tell you its proven to be boringly durable and reliable, the same that I find typical of any of my BCM carbines. Like the OP, I’m required to carry my rifle in the trunk.
My previous duty carbine was set up identical to the EAG Carbine (BCM 14.5" CHF midlength barrel w/pinned BC 1.5 and a Centurion Arms 9" and standard FSB). Before that, I carried a BCM 14.5" standard midlength barrel w/pinned BC 1.5 and a Magpul MOE handgard and standard FSB. I’ve also used one of Pat’s EAG carbines at his class a few years ago.
I just watched the video of the guy bashing the KMR against the post and the apparent damage it caused to the rail. I have never had the inclination to bash any of my carbines against a post in that manner but I’m guessing I could inflict similar damage on any rail system if I tried hard enough. Having said that I would venture a guess that the Larue rail may fare better to such abuse compared to the KMR. However, for me the KMR has proven just as durable as any other rail/handguard I’ve used and the weight savings alone is worth the price of admission.
If I had my way, I’d sooner have a 13" URX with a fixed SP1 length stock.
You can’t really go wrong. God willing it’ll hopefully not have to be used in anger. If you had the time, I’d try 3 gun with it.
While 3 gun isn’t the best test of combat, it does make it easier to see if this is a scoot and shoot rifle which is what you want.
A lot of less switched on but gun enthusiastic officers cobble up something like outta Transformers 3 and in a legit carbine class or even friendly 3 gun they start re evaluating their gear.
You could even get by on a normal M4.
Good luck with it.
There is a lot of truth to this statement.
Given that if your patrol rifle gets used in the line of duty, you won’t see it for a while, I tend to shy away from spending beaucoup money on non-issue rifles. An OEM 6720 with a Magpul fore-end (or whatever floats your boat: ALG is cheap and durable, etc.) and the stock of your choice, a decent 2-point quick adjust sling, and an optic and you are cooking with gas for a lot less cash on the barrel than either of those BCM rifles.
If your heart is set on a BCM rifle (trust me, I dig), either one will do well. As folks have noted, the primary condition for an LE carbine is weight. You’ll spend a lot more time at gun-ready or shouldered on a target than you will falling out of helicopters / falling down a mountain etc., and the weight savings will show themselves quickly on a long, multi-hour perimeter duty.
I dont see the reasoning behind not using the rifle you want because of the posibility of it being held as evidence. If it is being held as evidence then it served its purpose.
Plus, at least around here, if the shoot is good you’ll get it back fairly soon.
Depends on who is bagging things up, I guess. I’ve seen some firearms come back out of sealed plastic bags rusty beyond belief.
But, your point is well taken: buy the rifle you want, and if it is seized, it served you well.
My point is simply that you can accomplish much of the task with less cash out of pocket.
Well…it all depends on how lab rats treat your gun. Some come back in a cardboard box in decent shape. Others have idiot marks and especially with shotguns rusted up barrels.
While your rifle is an insurance policy, the nicer it is the more some jive lawyer will bring it up should you get to civil trial.
Honestly a Colt with a X300 torch and call it a day. Red dot if you do any night shift. Get a good 100 yard zero and call it.
I’d love to have a Mk. 12ish rifle with good optics and a Geissele trigger but in reality the people who you would use it on simply aren’t worth it. It can take years for the case to even get to a trial and a lot of months to get to grand jury.
Unless you are doing entries or are on a SWAT outfit, you probably don’t need to be dumping so much pay into a rifle that will sit in a trunk or an overhead rack most of its life.
I actually liked the old M16A1s they were doling out for a spell. Light, reasonable, had to buy a maglite to clamp on to the barrel but it got shot at training and qual more than anything.
Tl;dr don’t buy something you’re not prepared to possibly never see again.
Thanks for all of the help and information, I appreciate all of the perspectives. Just for some added info, the Department policy is that we keep patrol rifles in the back of the car, and they can only be used in specific types of threats. It’s pretty restrictive and I really don’t see it being used as much as some other Departments employ theirs. Officers are permitted to keep shotguns up in the front of the patrol cars. I’m not trying to turn this into a debate on the merits of the shotgun vs. the carbine, but from what I understand, there are definitely some advantages of a shotgun in regards to traffic stops and other patrol functions. Prior to joining the Police Department, I was a Marine Scout Sniper so I’ve definitely always felt more comfortable with a carbine, but I’ve grown fond of the Shotgun once I started researching it a little more.
I do own a BCM standard carbine. Nothing fancy at all, just a BCM upper on a LMT lower, and Knights quad rails. I just want to purchase another rifle so I can have a spare in case I do get one tied up in court as has been mentioned on here.
Perhaps if I knew I was going to be employing the rifle as much as some others, I would lean towards the KMR since I could appreciate the weight savings. However, I’m envisioning having the rifle bouncing around in the trunk the majority of the time, and while I’m sure the KMR is durable, perhaps the better option is the Larue Rail simply because it’s probably a little more durable AND I don’t anticipate carrying it around enough where the weight savings will really come into play.
You really don’t need a FF rail for a basic police carbine.
I always believe you should have an exact duplicate of whatever you are carrying that isn’t issued. I use a different caliber (approved) so I have two same makes and models. If it gets taken as evidence or merely has a repair issue, you still have an option.
I have a LaRue rail on a personal rifle. It’s not bad but a little heavy.
I’d sooner get an FSB clamp for a light and get something rack grade. Or if you just like the gangster grip a rail may work for you.
A pelican case would be the best investment if it will live in the trunk.
But as for shotguns, are you allowed to use slugs?
A lot of problems can be solved with slugs.
That’s the truth right there. Call me a p*ssy all you want but weight is HUGE factory for me the last time I held perimeter until SWAT showed up. My work carbine is set up pretty slick and with a pencil barrel. I normally just run a 30 rd mag but that day I decided to throw in the Surefire 60 which added a bit more weight. After a while the weight felt like tons. Every ounce counts on the patrol level. If you can man handle more weight, more power to you.
I thought about different work related scenarios on where my rifle could end up… damaged in a wreck, taken as evidence, etc. In the end it doesn’t matter. Use what you want and what will get you home.
If I could do it all over again I’d get the Colt 6720 and run it out of the box. It’s cheap enough these days.
There were some good points posted so far.
As a department firearm instructor and criminal investigator I have observed a few things.
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Most LEO do not shoot more than 500 rounds per year, usually less
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A lightweight carbine trumps a heavier weapon when assigned to long details.
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Most LEO I have trained or observed don’t carry more than 120 rounds on duty, so heat management and the ability to shoot precisely for more than 300 rounds is not applicable to most.
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If your carbine is used in a Critical Incident and you take a life with it you can expect it to be held as evidence for years not months. This is not the case in every jurisdiction, but I would not expect to have a carbine bagged as evidence returned in the foreseeable future.
I know it is a consideration for LEO to stay within their budget, but when it comes to firearms I never felt that I should be concerned about losing a firearm when my life or the lives of others depend on it’s use. I would rather lose a $1,000 rifle than the use of a limb, my life or the life of a citizen.
When it comes to breaking equipment during a lethal encounter or having it taken as evidence put that out of your mind.