Ended up with the Kahles 1X6 with the SM-1 reticle and a Geissele mount. Reason was the the 1X performance and the EOTech-ish reticle I love so much.
Bought the mount on the Memorial Day sale and the scope through Brownells with my Edge discount ($1800). Installed on an Colt CCU (6960).
Thanks for the guidance and advice.
I’m looking to purchase a 1X4. I have no need for anything larger. My search always migrates to X6 because the X4 choices are limited.
I’m gravitating towards the Schmidt&Bender PMII. Anyone with experience with these?
Also looked at Nightforce but online reviews say it is not daytime bright which is of value for me.
The Trijicon Accupower is an option but at it’s price point, I wonder if it is of the quality I seek. I’d like to think of this option as a diamond in the rough but online reviews are mixed.
Do you know of any other makers of fine 1X4?
As mentioned, the selections move up to X6. Trying hard to love Leupold like the Mark 6 but don’t like the reticle options. I also like the D-EVO/LCO but can’t wrap my head around the D-EVO hanging over the ejection port. Might be a non-issue but I have seen videos of brass bouncing off the optic. Not worried about hurting the optic, I just have this irrational feeling of having a malfunction caused by brass bouncing back. 1 in a million, I know…
Then there is Kahles and other highly recommended X6 but really don’t want that. I want something that is closer to a red dot than a scope. ALL of my shooting is done at CQB distances as that’s where my interest lies and where 99.9% of my shooting is happening. 100 yards would be extreme distance shooting for me. I have zero interest in shooting prone or sitting at a bench trying to group sizes that can be covered by a quarter at 1000 yards.
I have a T2 and a EXPS3-0 already. Now I want an LPVO. Self-imposed limit of 3K but would spend more on the right optic.
If you are just going from 1X to 4X and already have a T1 and don’t want higher than 4X then why not just get a high quality flip to side?
Since you said you don’t want a “scope” then I take that to mean you don’t really need any windage/ranging/bdc functions so a flip to side magnifier sounds like what you really want?
AFAIK a T1 plus Magnifier+Mounts is about 16oz (?) which is lighter than the lightest 1-4X LPVO + mount is around 25oz (?)
T1 (3oz) +Mount (4oz) + Aimpoint Magnifier (11oz with mount) = 18oz
In your case the SB Short Dot PMII is 20.35 oz + 4.1oz for Aero Ultralight non QD mount = 24.45oz but probably going to be 25oz+
Most people get a LPVO over a magnifier because they want something that can be used for much higher accuracy/ranging/bdc shots
Also keep in mind that the red dot life of most every LPVO I have come across is measured in Tens of Hours, not Thousands of Hours like the true Red Dots, H1, H2, T1 etc
and since you said 99.9% is CQB I would spend that LPVO money on thermal or night vision
The best red dot like 1-4 i have used were the now discontinued uso sr-4c scopes. 10k battery life, dual focal plane dot and ffp mil reticle. Mine is still going strong and i love it. However, some have had qc issues and uso doesnt support it anymore. The next best is the NF 1-4. You are correct, it is not daylight bright, but as an owner of 2 of them, the reticle doesnt need illumination. Its plenty bold and works awesome. If you do stretch to the 1-6 market its very hard to beat the swaro and kahles g4b rericles. My 1-6 red dot like favorite is the new lighter razor 1-6 gen ii. If you want a lpvo that has the best eye box, eye relief, illumination, and dont want to spend 2k get the razor. Its a heavier kahles. My 2c.
Understanding that you don’t want more than 4x, your options are going to be a bit limited as the entire industry is pushing higher mag in their LPV offerings.
The S&B is a 1.1-4x and is frankly overpriced compared to what the same money will buy in the current market. I had a Steiner 1-4x military that I purchased for like $800 from EuroOptic when they were on close out. It is an excellent optic with true 1x. But it’s long and heavy. Older tech. And you’ll have to find one on the used market. They don’t seem to come up often.
The Steiner p4xi seems like a good option, though I have no personal experience. And it doesn’t fit with your desire to have a “high end” 1-4; it’s more of a value option at just under $600 street price.
Trijicon Accupower is nice. Glass is decent. Reticle is good. Illumination is dim. It’s not a diamond in the rough due to its poor illumination.
The Steiner t5xi 1-5 is very good, and is a midrange price point. The m5x is their higher end option (m for military). Steiner announced the release of a m6xi 1-6, so who knows we may see the 1-5 line discounted as they phase it out.
All that said and knowing you don’t care to have 6x, the Kahles k16i really deserves consideration. It is a true 1x when the diopter is properly adjusted. It has very bright illumination, yet is completely daylight usable without illumination due to the excellent SM-1 reticle. And it only weighs 16 oz. The reticle is very EOTech’ish and is very very fast on 1x.
I’ve had the chance to use/look through most of the LPV options between myself and friends’ optics. The k16i is outstanding and is what’s currently on my KAC ACC. It will be moved to a 5.56 once my NF 1-8 atacr arrives.
I don’t know of a bigger S&B Short Dot snob and I can tell you that the reign of the S&B Short Dot is pretty much over unless you get one for a steal. Now they still are amazing optics and the 1.1-4x’s can still rock and roll, but there is better for less in this day and age.
Best entry level: Steiner P4Xi
Best value: Vortex Razor HD II E 1-6
Most no-BS general-purpose: Kahles K16i (choose your reticle poison). PS, the Kahles has the best eyebox I have seen on a LPVO yet, and it’s one of the lightest optics of its class.
Best Precision-oriented: While I like the 1.5-8x26mm S&B, I suspect the ATACR 1-8 will steal that seat in my book very soon.
I am really considering the Elcan for my SBR. It will also mostly be used for short range, but I do like to shoot out to 3-400 yards. With the deals you can find on the used market, and that the newer models have fixed previous issues, not sure why these never got more popular.
You really need to take a hard look at the Steiner P4xi. Although not priced in the “high end” category, I think you’ll find that it will suit your needs perfectly. You can put the money saved toward more ammo and training. I have one as a stop-gap until the 1-8x ATACR ships. When that happens the Steiner will move over to another gun, but only because I want an LPVO with a broader magnification range, not because it’s incapable. I think 4x or 6x is optimal for 556 guns shooting out to 300 yrds and under, or 8x if you’re going to be doing a lot of engagements at 500 yards, especially with a 7.62/.308. Anything beyond 8x power and you might as well start looking at MPVOs in the 4-16x range.
In the case of the OS4x…everything it does, and ACOG does better if that’s your thing.
Aside from that, they are stupid heavy and eye relief isn’t very good. You are also married to the external mount for adjustments while being married to one of the most inferior locking systems in the game (ARMs throw levers). Once upon a time, they and S&B were the only game in town for a combat variable (some users would argue it never did/should have a day at all), but that day is over…LONG over. LPVO’s do more, better and for less $. Elcans were expensive when they showed up and they’ve maintained the same price point to this day…GTFO with that.
The Elcan is a 3 1/2" floppy disk in a micro SD card world…
That’s usually what I hear about them. I liked the one I used, the owner never had an issue with it. But you’re right, even for the lower priced ones, they’re expensive. Getting a magnifier is probably the route I’ll go, but I did enjoy the Elcan.
I had one for a bit myself. The glass and image were fairly crisp from what I remember…I’ll give them that, but as I said we’re in a different time. Optic tech moves fast.
I would add that part of the SpecterDR appeal is the fact that they were fielded by USSOCOM and subcomponent JSOC units and saw wide use in real-world combat applications. It maintains a decent market presence because of the collectors and guys building SOPMOD clones.
Elcan’s pricing is out to lunch. They have actually raised it last year.
While the glass is clear, the image is noticeably darker compare to the Trijicon 1-8x due to the dual prism design which cuts out a lot of light transmission.
I would amend that to say that in 2018 it’s limited commercial market presence is now due to solely clone builders and misguided souls (“it’s sopmod/socom so it was and always will be good” mentality) but yeah. I forget that there are guys out there rabidly trying to source the right hose clamps for the Maglite’s on their CAR15…
PB4
Was that an issued Elcan or civilian side purchase? I’ve never heard much good and one of my friends who’s used the optic said they had an issue with some internal piece breaking, maybe the reticle? Can’t recall. But all that aside they just look heavy AF.
You mentioned the Accupower, but have you given any thought to one of the Trijicon Accupoint 1-4 or 1-6 scopes?
I have a TR24 (1-4) with the triangle post reticle on a 14.5 carbine and really like it. The scope is light, pretty good up close, and I’ve had no issue shooting 3-gun targets out to around 350 yards with it. The glass is excellent and the fiber optic illuminated reticle is very bright, fast and easy to see, plus there are no batteries to change and no electronics to worry about. With a 50/200 yard zero at the tip of the triangle you have the ability to use the reticle precisely if need be, although it does lack anything in the way hash marks for wind holds or hold overs.
Not that I try to frequent the FaceBook world very often, but whenever I do, it seems there is always someone on a tactical gear page selling an Elcan for a fat juicy price and there is a long line of poor souls beneath that initial post saying “sent IM” “sent PM,” “Next” etc…
I guess some guys don’t really think of the timeframe of the optic and the advances made in optics since.
The Trijicon TR24G (Accupoint, not accupower) is my preference for a general purpose carbine. The fiber optic illumination is plenty bright in full daylight or at dusk.
Posts 4 and 5. If you limit yourself to 4x and want top quality, your options are S&B, Nightforce and maybe USO. For less money you can get a Vortex Razor 1-6x that is better in almost every way, especially at 1x. If you don’t like that, check out the new 1-8x Nightforce options.
