I’d like to know your opinions, experience, and any advice you can give regarding this specific barrel comparison: Noveske stainless steel 16" Recon with an aftermarket nitride treatment vs Noveske 16" Light Recce. (Yes, I know the Recce is M249 barrel steel with double the chrome lining thickness, not standard chrome lined 4150.)
Lets compare the two on the following points:
Durability - Which will wear faster than the other? This sort of rehashes the “Nitride vs Chrome Lining” debate, but I’d like to specifically compare the M249 barrel steel and lining to the wear reduction benefits of Nitriding when applied to 416 stainless steel. I’ve already looked into this to a certain extent, and I’ve found that both offer good corrosion resistance (with nitride being slightly superior to hard chrome) and relatively equal hardness (65-70RC for nitrided 416 and 70-75RC for hard chrome). The hardened layer gained by the nitriding is thicker than the thickness of standard hard chrome plating, with the typical thickness of nitriding being 0.01-0.02" (0.25-0.5mm) and hard chrome barrel lining being around 0.0005" (0.0127mm) IIRC. I would assume that the M249 lining, being double thickness would be approximately 0.001" thick, which is still 1/10th the thickness of nitriding. This, when considered in conjunction with the hardness similarities, would lead me to believe that nitriding would be at least as good if not better than hard chrome for resisting simple erosion. What I couldn’t find is how the two compare in terms of heat resistance, or erosion resistance when heated - the factors that actually wear out a barrel. I’m really not interested in “Well my barrel has X,000 rounds through it and still shoots fine.” That’s great and all, but its an uncontrolled environment and really doesn’t prove anything one way or the other. What I would like is someone with an engineering/metallurgy background to share their knowledge or if anyone has a link to any articles that could shed some light on this.
Reliablitity - Chrome lined CMV is pretty tried and true, no argument there. What I am concerned about is 1) the use of stainless steel in a pressure vessel (what a barrel actually is) and 2) the effect of the 900-1000 degree Fahrenheit nitriding process on the temper of the stainless steel. If you don’t understand what this has to do with anything, you probably won’t understand any explanation I try to give either, so I’m not going to try. Again, it’s probably a engineering/metallurgy type thing.
Accuracy - Of course many of you wonder (and will likely make comments about) why I’m concerned with any of this at all and why don’t I just buy a barrel and be happy? Well, the balance of accuracy to durability is the key. I’m attempting to build an “all purpose” type of rifle that can effectively fill both a traditional combat rifle role as well as an SPR role. I’m looking for better ability to withstand rapid fire and high volume fire than naked stainless while maintaining at least 1MOA accuracy in a standard weight barrel. I’m not convinced I’m going to get that kind of accuracy out of a chrome lined barrel, but maybe someone can prove me wrong. Just going with the Light Recce would definitely be the less expensive option.
The reality is, there’s a noticeable difference between 65-70 Rockwell and 70-75. Hardness also affects other properties of metal and that varies from alloy to alloy.
Chrome is hard, but that’s all it is. It’s good for plating, but not much use by itself. It’s not much better than the base material.
Nitriding gets into the metal. It does not change the dimensions of the part it’s applied to, unlike chrome. I suppose it isn’t much better than the base material.
If you really want to know which is better, you’ll have to figure out what the cost per shot of the barrel is. For example, if a barrel costs $500 and it’s worn beyond acceptable limits after 10k rounds that barrel cost five cents per shot. A barrel that costs $250 that’s worn by 7500 shots only costs 3 cents per round. It’s shot out at a lower round count but costs less per shot.
Problem is, there are too many variables that affect barrel life. Best thing to do is simply get a barrel that shoots good and shoot it until it don’t.
The more realistic view of cost per shot is this- A $500 barrel costs fifty cents per shot if 1000 rounds are run through it. A $250 barrel costs a quarter per shot. That makes the $250 barrel a better value
I appreciate your thoughts, and respect your opinions, but I’m looking to go a different direction with this discussion. I’m not looking to be told that I’m over thinking the issue… I’m doing so intentionally. There is a reason I’m considering buying a $550 top tier barrel and then spending additional money having it nitrided, rather than just buying a BCM or DD and being happy. I’m not looking for standard milspec, good enough, or merely acceptable. I want to push the envelope. If everyone was satisfied with the current technology and status quo, we’d all still be shooting muskets.
I’m not saying you have to be of the same mindset, but if you don’t want to discuss the issue please don’t insinuate that it’s not worth discussing just because it doesn’t matter to you. I’m hoping that there are other members who would want to engage in this sort of discussion, otherwise we may as well just send letters to all the top tier manufacturers and tell them to stop funding R&D and just keep offering what they have.
That’s not my definition of “better” in this instance. I’m looking for a realistic comparison on performance, not value. I understand that cost wise, running uber cheap barrels till they puke and then replacing them with another uber cheap barrel is more cost effective than buying a higher quality barrel that may give you twice the life, but at triple the cost. In your example, the $500 barrel is the better barrel IMO even though it will end up costing more per shot to use, assuming everything else is equal.
Consistently 1MOA or better, as stated in my original post. Effective range will be 0-400 meters, but that’s beside the point really.
Nitriding has been covered. Noveske stainless steel barrels vs Noveske chrome lined barrels has been covered. Nitriding stainless steel barrels has been mentioned, but not discussed in depth, and a specific comparison between a nitrided Noveske Recon barrel and a Noveske Light Recce (obviously non-nitrided) has not been discussed at all, unless I missed something. If I did, I apologize and ask that you please direct me to that thread.
If it’s worth it to you and you have the money for a $550 barrel then go for it if that’s your thing. Me personally, it’s not worth it the price/performance ratio.
If everything else is equal, the lower cost barrel certainly is your choice because accuracy will also be equal. However, if accuracy was your primary concern, why include the chrome lined bore in the discussion? Not that chrome lined barrels offer poor accuracy, but they are generally less accurate than non-chromed barrels
My point wasn’t about running an uber-cheap barrel to death simply because it’s cheaper. If the balance of accuracy to durability is the key as you claim in your first post, you have to know the per shot cost of each barrel to make a comparison. Without that, it’s just guessing. The problem is that barrel life is dependent on how the rifle is shot and maintained and what type of ammo is used.
I didn’t make these points to stop the discussion about nitriding. I gave you these points to give you another angle to ponder. From the initial information given in your first post, my conclusion is that the matter is being over thought. It’s simple. You don’t have to spend $500 plus the cost of nitriding to get an accurate barrel. I paid $325 to have a 20 inch Lothar-Walther SS barrel delivered to my door complete with bolt matched to the barrel. As bolts were going for roughly $50, that means I got a very accurate barrel for $275 and it will last for thousands of rounds.
To get a 20 inch barrel from Superior with their “hard blue” (which I believe is a nitride finish) with matched bolt would have cost $525. Superior claims extended barrel life with their hard blue finish, but is it enough to be worth the extra money? The only way to tell is to get one and shoot the snot out of it.
The fact is, with any well made modern barrel, short of abusing it with mag dumps, it’s going to take a pile of ammo to wear it out
Hardening of an SS barrel can theoretically lengthen barrel life but I do have concerns with the corrosion question. However, I don’t see how that couldn’t be overcome with simple care. The bore would be much less prone (assuming its hand lapped and burr free) to damage by clumsy cleaning procedures.
Where are you guys getting > $500 for a nitrided SS barrel? WOA barrel $300 + nitriding only adds up to about $400 from the reputable treatment companies.
Buying a Noveske barrel for $100 more than a WOA is a separate issue. The treatment is only roughly $75 plus shipping.
Nitride, Melonite, Tennifer, etc. have all been used successfully on stainless pistol slides and haven’t lead to massive corrosion. There was an isolated case with a batch of S&W M&P slides I believe.
I should have clarified that I plucked the $500 and $250 figures out of the air to make a point about the cost per shot of barrel life while keeping the math simple
You seem to be the smart guy. Spend your money and find out – if you shoot that much, that precisely, give us your endorsement. Document and tell us your results – you’ll be speaking from first-person perspective.
I’m sure we could all benefit, and I’m very interested in your results (especially since cost isn’t a factor).
Basically we’ve had this discussion before, and either no one here has relevant empirical data, or it’s proprietary and they aren’t sharing. If you have the time and money, please, PLEASE do a good scientific test and share your results with us, because we would all like to know. While you’re at it, DD offers a CHF, 4150CMV, nitride-treated barrel in the current version of the 18" S2W 5.56 barrel. That would also be a good one to test. If you just want a shooter for actual personal use, flip a coin and enjoy.
A few years ago, Monty at Centurion Arms would guarantee 1 MOA or better from his uppers with quality ammo (give him a call, not sure if he’s still doing this). His barrels and that Noveske CHF share the same source… FN.
You’re not gonna have any longevity issues. Let us know when you shoot out your CHF barrel ;).
Good luck getting a Centurion or Daniel Defense barrel.
And just for reference concerning Centurion stainless barrels.
We now have RECON barrels. Our RECON barrels are the same as the MK12 barrels but are cut to 16.1in and have a mid-length gas system. These barrels come from the same machines and the same people who make the military MK12 barrels for the Special Operations community. The MK12 barrels are the result of tens of thousands of dollars in development done by the U.S. government to give our Special Operations guys the best weapon system that they can have. We have spoken with many operators who have used the MK12 barrels and carried them in combat and have found unanimous satisfaction with their reliability and accuracy. We currently do a break in procedure on all our barrels prior to leaving so no further break in is required by the end user.
Thanks for your input, I appreciate it. I’m focusing on Noveske mainly because I want a pinned switchblock. This rifle will be run suppressed and unsuppressed. Accuracy is not my primary concern, but it is a main concern. I’m looking for a blend of accuracy, longevity, and ability to take abuse with a smile, if necessary.
Perhaps I should’ve included more background info on why I’m looking for information on this topic. I’m beginning a build that I would like to adequately fill everything from a high volume fire/CQC role to a precision role out to 400 meters or so. I’ve already decided on a 16" “standard profile” barrel (not necessarily the gov profile, but not a pencil and not an HBAR) for a compromise between velocity, mobility, and legal requirements. In addition to accuracy I want the ability to run through two 30 round mags in one minute and then return to taking precision shots at a more moderate pace without worrying about damaging the barrel or permanently affecting accuracy. (I’m not saying this would done regularly, or even often, I just want the assurance of having the capability.) The main purpose of this rifle will be training and my go-to SHTF rifle. If I had to bug out with one long gun, this would be it, so it needs to do everything as well as possible. This is why I’m looking for longevity. Sure, I could probably buy two barrels that will easily last 10,000 rounds for the price of what I’m considering, but I’d rather have one that will last 20k, 30k, or more, and I’m willing to pay extra for it. Minimal maintenance is just as high on my priority list as accuracy and durability.
I realize I’m going to need to make compromises, which is why I’m not looking for .25MOA from a pencil barrel and expecting it to survive frequent mag dumps for 50k rounds - although that does sound appealing in a world of unicorns and leprechauns.
Yes and no. What I’ve gathered from my research is that the nitride treatment will decrease the corrosion resistance of austenitic stainless steel (300 series), but slightly increase the corrosion resistance of martensitic stainless steel (400 series). Nitride treated martensitic stainlesss is supposed to be equivalent to nitride treated chromoly steel (4100 series) in regards to corrosion resistance, a level that is better than untreated martensitic stainless and hard chrome plating, but less than that of austenitic stainless.
My reason is two words: pinned switchblock. I realize there are other barrel makes, some arguable better for a similar price tag and some arguable equal for a lower price tag.
Perhaps I misspoke when I said cost isn’t a factor. I am on a budget, but I have never been one to skimp on quality. I buy sport tires for my economy car, premium fuel (no ethanol), full sythetic oil and premium filters. I’m willing to spend the extra 20% on the product that is well built here in the USA rather than buying the cheaper Chinese counterpart. Given this has always been my mindset (buy once, cry once), and in light of current events, I do not see my go-to SHTF rifle to be anything to skimp on, so I’m trying to expand my budget as much as possible. If it’s necessary or beneficial in my mind, I’m going to find a way to afford it.
I am leaning towards biting the bullet and being a guinea pig with a nitride treated stainless steel barrel, because my assumption is that it will be more accurate than a comparable chrome lined barrel and should last longer than a nitride treated CMV barrel… whether the longevity will be equivalent to a chrome lined, cold hammer forged M249 CMV barrel… well, I don’t have the knowledge to answer that question or the budget to test that for myself unfortunately. My main concern before doing so though is the second point in my original post. 1st, I’ve never used a stainless barrel that wasn’t a bull or target profile. I’ve heard of thinner stainless barrels suffering catastrophic failure due to ruptures from the sulfur content or embrittlement at sub-zero temperatures, although I’ve never heard of this specifically with AR barrels. 2nd, I’m concerned about the temperature range the stainless steel is exposed to during the nitride treatment and how it affects the temper of the steel.
I will be training quite a bit with this rifle, but not always with this barrel, so unless the S does HTF I probably won’t have any conclusive evidence to report back unfortunately. I do plan to run a very high volume of ammunition through a dedicated .22LR upper though, and I’m leaning toward the CMMG, which is nitrided 4140 steel. I doubt I would ever be able to wear that barrel out with .22 ammunition though. Hopefully I can get some good results on the longevity of the rest of the parts in the lower receiver (geisselle SD-E planned and VLTOR A5 being considered if it will cycle with .22LR).
You have the option of nitriding a Noveske (built off a PacNor blank) or a Superior Barrels Amynta (a Frank White smithed Douglas that’s been “Hard Blue” treated) – or a variety of other premium (cut-rifled) barrels you can also have nitrided.
PacNor and Douglas blanks are button-rifled. Some believe a cut-rifled blank will provide better accuracy, longer (perhaps even longer with the nitride treatment).
If it was an all out accuracy build I’d probably go with a Krieger single-point cut-rifled barrel, but I’ll think I’ll save that for the Rem700 build in .308.
I’m really stuck on Noveske for this build, one way or the other… Unless someone knows where I can buy a pin-on Switchblock separately (not the clamp on one).
