So I see a lot of posts on this forum, about people that buy “cheap/garbage Ar’s” and that they don’t shoot them enough to know that they are “garbage”.
So my question is, what do the people posting these statements think is the right amount of range time/rounds down range to qualify them to professionally report on what is GTG or NOT? What amount makes you no longer average?
Because I shoot at least 2-3 times a week with the same 3-4 people, EVERY week and I have to disagree with what is junk or not. I can pretty much guarantee I put in more time at the range than most on this website. I have both and so do the guys I shoot with highend AR’s Noveske, Colt. I also have the so called “GARBAGE Del-Ton, Ruger AR’s” and guess what? I have no problems with any of them and truthfully I shoot my “lowend AR’s” more than any of my highend. I have a *&#@ ton of rounds through my cheap AR’s and rarely clean them. I take them out on 3-4 day hunts where we are hiking all day & night through the desert and them perform flawlessly!
I am not saying that a Del-Ton is the same quality as a Colt or BCM etc… But they do and will last and handle hard use. I just think that we should be a little more opened minded to the lower end market, they have their place and actually perform quite well!!
This thread was not meant to start an argument, just want to point out that maybe some of us need to actually give things a try before judging. Or, maybe a few of us need to be honest with ourselves and stop acting like we actually use our rifles enough to actually judge other peoples choices on cheaper rifle purchases.
I am just a guy who stumbled onto ARs. I did some research and visited some gun shops before buying. Finally, I decided to buy what my local gun shop sold. I am way out in the country and buying from him supports him and gains entry to his advice. His advice has never been wrong. My AR is not the cheapest nor the most expensive but it works just fine. I shoot about twice a month and have been shooting for about three years. I am perfectly happy with my AR. If and when my grandson (who is into guns) decides to build an AR as he said he wants to do, I would recommend Del-Ton. I have ordered from them and they have coached me on the phone and they have gone out of their way to make sure the tiny parts I ordered were correct. I think they are a fine company and have their catalog. As you can see, I am no expert but simply a guy who wants to wake up every day and learn something new.
Always nice to see a new AR fan! Always have an open mind to everyone’s input when it comes to AR’s. I personally have no problem with cheap AR’s, but I also love my highend AR’s.
When it comes to what is or is not a bad AR. Unfortunately a lot of people get caught up in brand names, don’t get me wrong the brand names are GREAT but the cheap AR’s will perform great also they just don’t have the pedigree!
A number of years ago (11, I’m getting very old) , I beat the shit out of a Rock River 16" mid length to see if it would fail. Wolf 55 grain steel cased. I loaded 500 rounds and did mag dumps. I did shoot at a B 27 target to make myself feel like it wasn’t a complete waste, but it kinda was. Nothing went wrong, the barrel got very hot, I gave the rifle to a really good friend and he still shoots it now and it is fine. I personally don’t buy anything that anyone on this forum would not consider tier 1 because it makes me feel better, which it is really all about. I make myself shoot once a week, even if its ****ing snowing. I’m not even sure how much I like shooting anymore. Most people will never get into a gunfight with their AR, but the ones who have and live to post about it, will mentally give themselves every advantage, real or perceived, that they possibly can.
I have used an AR for what they were intended for and trained with them for 8 years. I have no problem using a Del-ton, PSA, Ruger, etc… In a gunfight! And I have no problem using a highend AR also!
It’s just like with anything, there is a reason certain parts and materials were chosen as “quality.” Whether or not the shooter will ever see why really depends on the round count, and volumes of fire.
I had issues within 300 rounds with my S&W since it was overgassed. So, I add a heavier buffer, problems end. Now, get a BCM. Would that happen? No. I put over 3k through BCM and nothing has went wrong.
Now, will I break a BCM before a S&W? No clue, probably not. I have broke the buffer retaining pin from Del-Ton, though. I have also seen someone install a cheap light trigger and get light primer strikes, and a unstaked castle nut back out.
The problem with that train of thought “certain parts, quality…Mil-spec” the government chooses the lowest bidder when it comes to contracts. Always has and always will, so what does that really say about Colt and FN?
Not sure, but Colt’s seem to be well made, I’ve seen very abused M4 still running fine. If a cheaper material could be used, I’m sure the government would use it, but the Mil spec has stayed, and been proven. There is no way you can say it hasn’t.
Now have cheaper AR’s been proven? Sure. As I said though, the only issues I have had with an AR is from cheap manufactures. YMMV.
No, the GOV chooses the lowest bidder if all other things are equal and they meet the required standard. Colt and FN meet that standard.
We can talk all we want about how X gun is just as good, or question why you experience good times with cheap weapons, but it doesn’t change there is a standard that must be met under contract. It certainly isn’t just a low ball bidfest.
You’re not going to find the answer you’re looking for.
Does your rifle work? Great! Move on.
Did something on your rifle break? That sucks. Replace the part with something from a quality brand and move on.
A lot of these budget brands are capable of making a functioning, reliable rifle. Just keep in mind that they cut corners somewhere or another, whether it is materials or quality control. Just because YOUR rifle didn’t have any issues, doesn’t mean issues don’t exist due to these “cost saving” measures. My PSA is perfectly fine, but there are a lot of others that are not.
Don’t seek the validation of others for your budget choice. Just enjoy it.
That’s great that you have good experience with your bargain bin ARs. However you’re a sample size of one. Talk to instructors who hold regular carbine classes and you’ll hear a lot about students who roll up with DPMS, DelTon, Spikes, no-name parts builds, etc and end up being the ones who hold up the class with their persistent malfunctions.
No one said those guns never run, you’re just much more likely to run into defects and issues with cheaper guns because they don’t spend the money on QC
Mag dumping 500 rounds in one sitting shouldn’t be a big deal for most firearms. Heck, I go out most range days and put around 400 rounds downrange on a rifle, maybe 200 in a pistol. That’s my average day, maybe 2-3 days monthly. Doesn’t make me an expert, nor do I claim to be. I don’t even claim to be a very good marksman or avid shooter.
But my S&W M&P-15OR had issues in the first 500 rounds (possibly from switching brass to steel case, but it never improved even with cleaning). My PSA’s have been about 50/50 (mostly issues with the non-5.56 flavors). My go-to gun is a Colt or a DD/BCM. Both of those have been through classes with 500+ round days (usually 2-day courses), shot in the summer heat and humidity in South Carolina, their torrential rains, and the snow in Kentucky. The DD recently got a supressor and has at least 500 rounds without issue. I have over 3K rounds through each (granted, not a huge number) but no issues with either. I also have a KAC 11.5 SBR that’s getting close to that number that I use in my run N gun matches - weather ranging from 30-90 degrees and drug through mud pits, banged around when I run, dropped, clattered against rocks, rested on car doors, etc.
Notice I didn’t put the S&W or PSA through those events?
Op, if cheap rifles were just as good as proper ones, the University of Science, Math, and Culture probably wouldn’t have so many that say Colt, FN, and HK on the magwells. I’m sure they’d love to save a few bucks.
Of the dozen or so AR’s and AR barrels I own, my PSA barrel is the only one that is not threaded properly. Something I never would have noticed had I not tried to mount a suppressor. And my RRA trigger is the only one that I’ve deadlined due to rust. I also deadlined another trigger in just 1000 rounds due to wear. You are correct that most people don’t shoot enough to find the cut corners, or tinker enough to find the reverse engineering errors. But honestly, with the prices that Colt 6920’s have been going for at LE oriented stores, you’d be crazy to buy a RRA, Bushy, or DPMS.