Automobile = cover or bullet magnet?

The long thread on handgun ammunition and penetration testing has me wondering about cars again.

The question is - the automobile, is it cover/concealment or a bullet magnet? I am certain that it is actually both but when is it the former and when is it the latter? And how can you tell? What are some of the indicators? What about where you are in the car - outside behind the engine or inside next to the door? I also think the sort of weapon that is being used against you changes things as well.

M_P

I think it depends entirely on the context. For the average citizen or police officer inside CONUS where the typical gunfight is close-range, is probably done with handguns, and is generally over in a relatively small number of shots, the engine compartment of the vehicle would qualify as cover at least long enough to resolve the problem. If, however, you’re rolling in a PSD convoy in Iraq and you’re ambushed by a bunch of guys with PKMs and RPGs…well…the stationary vehicle probably isn’t cover, or at least won’t be for very long.

From front to rear, because of the engine block, I’d say yes. From the side, again from behind the engine block or wheels, I’d say yes, especially if rifle ammo is involved.

Is the vehicle still mobile?
Is the vehicle your best or only available cover?
What kind of vehicle do you have? Armored car or Prius?
Is effective fire being laid on you? Rounds hitting the car and/or keeping you from moving away from it?
What are you being shot at by? Handgun? Rifle? RPK?

Also see Paul Howe’s article raising several car as cover issues:

http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/the_myth_of_cover_07.pdf

That’s a great document. Thanks for posting it.

Don’t mention it. I take more than I give from this site. Thanks to you all.

I used to drive down Dolly Madison Highway everyday so I think about Mir Aimal Kasi a lot. I’ve always wondered, if it happens again, do you leg it out of the car? Do you try to run him over? Do you stay in the car and return fire through the windshield? Get under it and try for his legs?

What’s the wrong thing to do? I appreciate that CSAT article, that is a good reminder to not crowd cover.

M_P

Moder Pirate,
John Wayne said it best. It depends on your environment and what you’re being shot at with.

Personally in my experience i think they tend to be bullet magnets and at the first chance I get to get away from them I do. As a rule of thumb I just think they buy one time to evaluate your location/situation and better cover options around you. Even if fully armored the vehicle can still be vulnerable if being shot at with AP ammo. I’ve seen it, it wasn’t much cover trust me. It’s not like Hollywood as usual.

R.

Random comments:

Drive away if you can.

If you have to fight, get out quick.

There is very little cover in a vehicle.

Stay back if you can (Paul Howe’s article shows why).

When using a vehicle for cover/concealment, you are easily and quickly outflanked.

Everyone talks about using the “engine block” for cover. Anyone take a good look at your engine compartment lately? Engines aren’t as big as they used to be.

Fetal prone using the wheels (esp the front wheels) is not a horrible way to use the vehicle as cover.

It is very easy for one to use an inert weapon to practice techniques relating to fighing from within and from around vehicles. Have a partner play the opfor role to keep you honest.

Cars are concealment and nothing more.

The discussion is generally centered around the engine compartment versus the rest of the vehicle. From that perspective if there’s a dude shooting at you the engine compartment is the best place to be. Right along where the wheel sits offers the best protection assuming the vehicle is perpendicular to the path of the bullets. If it’s in line with the bullets then the rear of the vehicle is preferable. It’s not perfect, and somebody with some ammo can eventually start working rounds through that area if they are persistent enough…but it’s damn difficult to identify any real-world cover that cannot be breached by an enemy who has the luxury of time and ammo.

I really appreciate the responses - if you think about it, the automobile is one of the top five places we spend time. I think we should put more focus on it and how to leverage its strengths and minimize the weaknesses.

More thoughts and tips, please.

M_P

This video might help the discussion. LAV and Kyle D discuss…

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1155316168?bctid=57551646001

John W is right about context, so let me expand a bit on this in regards to non armored vehicles.

The problem with the idea of using the engine block is that you often don’t get to use it.

The worse case situation is being in a stopped vehicle. Lets say your are static at a stop light or parking lot. Someone is out the kill you in your car. You are not expecting a gun fight If they are within 25 yards, you have little chance even if you are packing a gun in your belt. Your fate is really dictated by the actions of the attacker.

If he closes on you, especially going lateral to get a clean shot on your sides, you are toast. There is just too much shock and awe to the person inside the vehicle, with the glass and stuff flying around. Your reaction time will be greater.

Can you drive away? Sure, maybe if you are on a football field. In real life we often have stuff around us, be it other cars, sidewalks etc. You hit this stuff and it slows you down or stops you dead. With two attackers, the odds are much much worse. All this is why assassinations are easier when the victim is in a car. Most people are lousy drivers in normal situations, let alone getting shot at.

So, the key is distance, not engine blocks and shooting through glass. You create distance by being aware of your situation. You create distance by being a moving target and if you do go static, you do it with situational awareness.

Stopping a moving vehicle is a bit more difficult with gunfire, as most LEO will tell you, IF the person knows you are after him. To stop them, you have to put rounds into the driver, not just the vehicle. You will be lucky to get a clean shot, let alone worry about shooting through glass to hit the driver. Most unsuspecting drivers who take gunfire will rarely recognize what it is, and will often pull over and stop. They probably will not see the shooter, not recognize the report of the weapon, and wonder what hit their car to cause the windshield to explode.

Most range based vehicle training that I have been through was not very realistic for civilians. Maybe for LEOs doing traffic stops, but not for most of us. First of all, you will be lucky to even see your attacker. They will normally be putting rounds into you and your vehicle before you even get to your weapon.

If you are lucky enough to get out of a vehicle, get away from it as soon as it is safe to do so. Cars are bullet magnets because they become the focal point of the attackers. People tend to shoot more rounds and at a higher rate when aiming for big targets.

Well, that is a bit of my view on the subject. Others may have had different experiences.

My operating philosophy is this - an automobile will provide cover for the bad guy but it will provide only concealment for you.

Sometimes you gotta take what you got.
Anything is better than nothing, if used appropriately.

Exactly. Unless you are dealing with a bg armed with an rpg, id be inclined to say it’s concealment/cover.

Its concealment if you are hiding behind the doors or gas tank, its cover if you have the block or axle between you and the BG…

In the video I linked LAV said as a last resort to use the rear of the car so that you have multiple layers that have to be penetrated…

Edited!:smiley: