Recently arrived at my new unit and I’ll be zeroing/qualifying at the end of the week, and using an ACOG for the first time ever. To throw another wrench into the works, it’s pretty much common knowledge that the targets here are so shot up that a COM hit isn’t guaranteed to register. I’ve shot expert since basic training and am determined not to let a faulty range/new optic combination screw it up for me. I’ve always used irons and the M68 optic. Never an ACOG. I understand they’re a substantially better option, but I have no experience at all with one.
What are your suggestions as far as zeroing at 25 meters goes (where to place the reticle in order to make the best of an already handicapping zeroing distance) and holds for various distances? Will the bullet drop compensator still work with a 25 meter zero?
I would guess it to be the job of your Master Gunner to correct the damaged target issue. He doesn’t have to accept the range as good to go if it isn’t.
Unfortunately, I’m unaware of US Army qualification standards but you shoot to 300 meters at humanoid sized targets, right?
In order to properly zero your optic, you have to do so at 100 meters. Period. Shooting at 25 gets you close and on paper, but if you expect to shoot at 25 meters and make hits at 500 yards without a confirmation of zero at 100 meters you’re really just guessing. Be sure to note where POA/POI is for all distances in your data book (Does the Army use these?) as you do not adjust the ACOG for windage.
RE BDC: My BDC was always very accurate to at least 300 yards. Pretty much POA/POI despite decent crosswinds. At 500 yards I would put the 500 yard tick mark at the bottom left corner of the 6’ wide x 6’ tall target to hit in the center with a moderate breeze. The range we fired at always had a full value tradewind going from left to right. If the wind got really bad I would hold on the target next to mine. This all needs to be learned with practice, an understanding of ballistics and documentation.
Sounds like the stories I’ve heard here. ACOGs are easy to use, you just have to play around a little with your cheek weld to find the proper eye box. I’m assuming Marines have a different reticle than the Army’s so keep that in mind, but if you’re Army it should be a chevron with a BDC below it. The first part of the BDC is illuminated the same as the chevron and that is technically what you zero off of. Personally, the apex of the chevron is what has always attracted my eye so that is what I use. The BDC probably won’t be accurate but I don’t care because I normally shoot RDS without a BDC anyways. At 300m, I’ll usually aim at about the neck/chin and send it.
The M150 uses the M4RCO reticle, the only difference really is the M150 comes with an laser filter and uses 1/2 MOA clicks while the original M4RCO was in 1/3 MOA clicks and the newer ones are in 1 CM clicks.
The pre-zero at 32 meters gets you close to your zero. The 25m zero used by the Army is a compromise for convenience and when they use to put on an instructors course Trijicon would always says to do the actually zero at 100ms
From the comparison I saw on the Trijicon website, the Army RCO uses the same reticle pattern that the Marine Corps RCO uses. The main difference between the Army RCO-M150C and the USMC RCO-M4 is the flip caps being incorporated int othe M150 vs the kill flash being added additionally to the RCO-M4. One suggestion that I have is to cover the fiber optic cable with tape and peel back the tape to determine how much sunlight that hits the fiber optic. More light will make the reticle brighter and less defined, less light will dim the brightness of the chevron/illumanted tip, thus making it more precise. You can play with it to find your sweet spot. No doubt you can absolutely shoot w/out the tape over the cable, (full brightness) if you prefer though. As Eurodriver stated, the BDC is pretty spot on once youve been able to confirm 100m zero. The 25m zero using the 300m aiming point should get you pretty close, and you should be able to confirm at distance. Hope that gouge helps.
A range recon the day before, walk the targets by lanes, explain to the range ops people what is and isn’t acceptable and if needed take cell phone pics and call to your Operations Sargent Major and Range Control Center.
If you don’t do that here is what is going to happen.
After zero’s are confirmed and you move to the pop ups, junior guys will lose confidence in their zero’s they will begin to monkey with their ACOG’s and you lose in two ways. One they wont believe in themselves and two they wont believe in their equipment.
It’s just not worth it, if you don’t train to standard and run the range correctly, just give the ammo to a unit who will.
If you can, make sure to keep both eyes open. I have seen people get sucked in on unknown distance courses and not use both eyes and not see their targets
Some of my friends in the Oklahoma Army National Guard have told me about shot up pop-ups, where the centers were so shot out that the best strategy was to shoot in the dirt in front of the target and knock it over with flying rocks and fragments. Seems pretty bogus, but hey, it’s the government… they specialize in bogus.
I’m just a lowly junior enlisted soldier! It’s strange to me how little importance seems to be placed on shooting here. It’s all 350-1 training and records reviews endlessly. We did so many ranges in Korea that I could do them in my sleep, and Sergeant’s time training was frequently various shooting techniques and discussions. Never had an ACOG though. Now it’s just like “oh hey by the way we’re shooting later this week.” I’ve yet to even see my actual assigned weapon. I’d like to clean/oil it to my liking beforehand, but that doesn’t seem like a possibility.
Appreciate all the tips and information from everyone. Hoping everything goes well.
From my experience (and what I was told by former Marines in my unit) the Army teaches how to shoot a rifle pretty well. Well at least at Fort Benning in 2002 they did. I definitely came out of Basic a pretty good shot, as did a lot of my buddies. However the USMC teaches a lot more about the actual ballistics of the round. Every Marine in my unit said they liked the Army qual better but that the USMC had a better program for teaching rifleman.
The reason many would prefer the Army qual course is that its is not the time sucking, grind the Marine Corps makes tables 1-4. The Marine Corps has the ability to take the fun out of anything.
If a unit does the training right, the week before the range you spend your days snapping in, than 3 days shooting table 1, than 2 days shooting table 2 and than another 2-3 days shooting tables 3-4
Bingo. Pop up human targets at 300 meters? That is fun! Plus you guys probably got to take a hot shower the morning of, sleep in A/C, and even have your girl cook you breakfast.
In Hawaii, every time I was at the range I went to Pu’uloa, about an hour drive from base. It’s literally on the opposite side of the island. This irritats the hell out of everyone because MCBH has its own (beautiful) range (seen here inside the crater), but I guess it can’t handle 1100 Marines so only the Air Wingers get to go out there. I did use it for Tables 2-4 a few times, though.
Since you have to draw weapons by 5am, and it’s so far away, it’s almost like a mini deployment. First you spend the entire week beforehand, as Ron said, “snapping in” which means sitting indian style for 8 hours a day in the hot sun with your sleeves down dry firing on a rusty old 55gal drum with targets spray painted on it that are so dull you can barely see them. Then on the Sunday of qual week you pack up all your shit and they haul you to the range on busses and make you eat MREs, sleep in barracks that have no A/C, and take showers that have no hot water all week. Pu’uloa is literally in the middle of a neighborhood development and the only place within walking distance is a shitty convenience store.
And then of course when you’re not shooting, you’re in the pits pulling targets because even though it’s 2015 and everyone else has automated target systems, it’s cheaper and easier to have a bunch of Lance Coolies mark the targets. Oh, and God forbid some mok fisherman decides a half mile offshore SW Oahu is where his ancient fishing spot is gonna be that day. Your rifle range trip will last for ****ing ever. You think you’ve got problems because the targets have holes in them in the Army? Try being a Staff Sgt that nobody likes. Of course the reverse is also true and big bucks have been spent earning expert badges…
The absolute worst part by far is after a week spent snapping in, then moving to shitty barracks with no amenities whatsoever, then sitting on ammo crates and pulling targets for another 3 days, you realize that you’re only 25% done.
Army qual aint a bad day at all. Come in at 0400 for weapons draw at 0500. Drive out to the range around 0600. Spend a couple hours setting up the range, unloading ammo from the truck, making sure the fox holes are useable and free of wildlife, eat a MRE, and wait your turn. The ranges we went to only had about 20 firing positions so getting a whole company through takes a while. Then the failures had to get some refresher training and try again. And of course its always the guy who barely quals, never on the first try, that takes some ****ing wild ass shot in Iraq at a running insurgent at 300 meters and blames the 5.56 when the guy doesnt face plant in the street.
Now this was all at Ft Benning. Between the AMU, lots of competitions being held there, and Basic Training we had a lot of ranges to choose from. Some were shitty while others looked like a PGA Tour golf course.
I cried literal tears of joy the last time I did rifle Qual in the Corps. Upon finishing my last string at 500M in the morning, and getting my expert rifleman award (again), I was getting ready to do what all terminal lance 0351’s do: go pull targets in the afternoon until hell freezes over; but somehow ended up on the list to go Qual the M9.
Being allowed to skate from duty in the pits might have been the best day ever for me in the USMC other than my last day. That is how much rifle Qual in the USMC sucks.
Common knowledge that the middle is shot out. Sounds more like rumors from people who are terrible shots and making excuses. Youll find that alot in the army. But then again I wouldnt put it past the government to have shot out targets.
Im betting more on terrible shots making terrible excuses. I dont know why youre asking anout zero, they have regulations that outline what to do, all which will be done at the range without your influencr.
It’s strange to me how little importance seems to be placed on shooting here. It’s all 350-1 training and records reviews endlessly. We did so many ranges in Korea that I could do them in my sleep, and Sergeant’s time training was frequently various shooting techniques and discussions. Never had an ACOG though. Now it’s just like “oh hey by the way we’re shooting later this week.” I’ve yet to even see my actual assigned weapon. I’d like to clean/oil it to my liking beforehand, but that doesn’t seem like a possibility.