ar ammo question

Hello everyone,

I just registered on this forum - this is my first post here.

I don’t know if this questions belongs here, or under general ammo questions. If you need to move it, so be it.

I recently purchased my first AR (Bushy M4A2, 16" barrel with 1in9 twist). I sold my WASR AK to get it. I hope it was a smart decision.

Anyway, my question…

I am stocking up on ammo - both for training and cache purposes. My selection is limited. I would like to know the collective opinion regarding American Eagle 50gr flat base HP and Hornady 55gr V-max ammo for self-defense / SHTF use.

I also have a small supply of Black Hills FMJ and 50gr V-max re-manufactured ammo to test.

I have heard good things about Hornady TAP FPD and Federal TRU ammo, but can not find it anywhere. There is also no 5.56 ammo available anywhere.

The only cheaper ammo around here is Wolf (don’t want to use steel case), Magtec and UMC (I’ve had bad experiences with both in pistols).

AE is almost cheap enough to use as training ammo as well as SHTF.

My biggest question, again, is the use of AE 50gr HP and Hornady 55gr V-max for defense and SHTF use from a 16" barrel. Estimated practical range will be less than 200 yards, most likely less than 100.

Opinions please. Thank you.

moonshot

The Hornady 55gr TAP is a good choice. We have some of the LE TAP in stock if interested.

AE/UMC is fine to shoot for practice. Not my preferred choice for SHTF.

C4

When it comes to AMMO, the still uncontested king of Ammo FAQ’s is TOS’s [b]Ammo Oracle[/b]. Read that and most questions will be answered.

As for DEFENSIVE AMMO, I would not use fancy bullets in the lightweight spectrum (50-55g). FMJ has proven to be very effective all by itself. You would be better served with some TAP or Black Hills though, IMO.

Sadly, you have found yourself in a very bad time for building your stash… not much available and very expensive $$$…

Rmpl

Don’t I know it. That seems to be the story of my life - a day late, a dollar short.

Oh, well. At least I’ve got one, and I’ll have to get some ammo, however expensive it may be. I’ve read ammo oracle, and it was extremely informative. Unfortunately, most of the recommended rounds are not available locally. Apparently, some TAP is available on-line. I’ve never bought ammo that way. Any problems of which I should be aware?

Ammo Oracle recommended FMJ for its frag ability, but that only seems to happen if the velocity is >2700 fps. From my 16" barrel, that means light weight. I’m guessing 55gr or less.

Coming from a handgun background, I lean towards HP ammo. Perhaps I shouldn’t.

The V-max seemed like a sound idea - the concept is the same as the TAP round, just slightly less pressure and a different cartridge material. I figured if I couldn’t get the TAP, I’d get the V-max or a HP. I figured either it would expand like a handgun round, or if not, I would be back in the FMJ realm and I might still get fragmentation.

I admit I’m new to this, but because supply is thinning and cost is rising, I don’t have a lot of time to perform book research or range testing. I need to listen to the experts and get the best that is available (even if it isn’t the best there is).

If I do order TAP from an on-line source, can you recommend a grain weight suitable for my 16" barrel, 1 in 9 twist, and range under 200 yards? Thanks.

moonshot

Your handgun ammo isn’t flying at 2,700 Feet per Second. :smiley:
Buy a couple of cases of some decent 55 gr FMj and get some trigger time in. Take up a carbine course and get intimately familiar with your weapon. Yes tehre are certainly better 5.56mm / .223 ammo out there, but they also cost quite a bit more. FMJ’s served us well in combat. I have a good feeling that it will do as well for you given that premise that you have some decent trigger time with your weapon.

Archangle,

You’re tell me a 55gr FMJ is better than a 50gr HP. OK, fine. I’m not going to argue, because I don’t know. Does it matter whose FMJ I get? American Eagle, Black Hills, Hornady, Wolf, someone/anyone else?

I realize I have to test the round out in my rifle, and make sure it is reliable. I also realize I need a good class or three. That is high on my list of things to do.

I’ve had several LFI classes as well as some other lesser-known handgun classes.
They have been well worth the expense.

My plan is to buy ammo now, at least a case of training ammo and a half case of “good stuff”. More if I can find it and afford it. Class time will have to wait until next summer.

If HP is good for SHTF, I’ll keep my AE in reserve. If I really should use FMJ for SHTF, then the AE can be relegated to training - I have around 700 rounds of it already.

The least expensive FMJ I’ve seen locally that come from a manufacturer I trust is Black Hills red box, but it’s $25 for 50m rounds. Not cheap!

moonshot

Black Hills blue box ammo :slight_smile:

I wouldnt personally use the Vmax rounds. Ammo online can often be less expensive than the local route. Grant has TAP in stock give him a call and order some. One of the nice things in dealing with Grant s you can pick his brain while you are on the phone and he wont charge you for the information. I prefer to use a quality FMJ round in my zombie guns of either 55gr or 62grain. You never mentioned what type of AR you bought?

Black Hills blue box is re-manufactured ammo (or so I was told). I have some blue box 50gr V-max for testing, along with BH red box 55gr FMJ. I have always tried to avoid re-loads. Most of the problems I have seen with “bad” ammo have been re-loads (although usually from unknown sources).

Why not use V-max? It seems almost identical to the recommended TAP rounds, just a different case.

I saw Grant’s reply to my op, and I was going to call him tomorrow. I’m new here. I’ll assume he is a straight shooter.

Sorry, I bought a Bushmaster M4gery-A2.

moonshot

Black hills reloads are as good or better than most other new ammo. the blue box Black hills ammo is 100% top quality and you can trust it,very accurate also.FYI you will not be able to do better than Black Hills ,as good maybe but not better .if you wan’t 55 grain the Hornady Tap LE 5.56 that Grant has is great stuff ,buy it while you can .it is not always avalible to the public . :cool:

BH if BB or RB is good stuff!
Grant is good to go. Welcome to the forum and one thing ypu will find is that most here are straight shooters and if they arent they dont last very long. We also try to support the family here when it comes to purchases when we can. Why buy from someone we dont know?

Thanks for the welcome. I’ll give Grant a call tomorrow.

I know TAP is available from 55 gr up to I think 75gr. What weight is best from my 16" barrel (both BT and FMJ).

moonshot

Again what type of AR did you buy? Barrel twist rate?

Bushmaster M4gery-A2, 16" chrome barrel with bird cage flash suppressor, 1 in 9 twist. Anticipated maximum range - 200 meters. Most likely 100 meters or less.

moonshot

Having seen and shot a metric poop-ton of BH BB go downrange, you needn’t be concerned about that particular remanufactured ammo.

BH is the first choice for me, even over the new manufacture of others.

Why not use V-max? It seems almost identical to the recommended TAP rounds, just a different case.

The BH V-max loads are a popular duty load, and comparable to TAP.

At the way ammo prices have been going up.

You may need to sell your rifle to buy ammo.

The Black Hills ammo is good stuff. I’ve tried the 200rnd value pack at wally world ($56) and it’s good for some range time. Just to let you know when I had my first bushmaster I shot lots of wolf ammo as it was cheap without a problem. It is dirty ammo but if you clean after I think you should be ok. Welcome to the forum.

A little further reading from Ammo Oracle…

Unlike most FMJ rounds, M193 and M855’s primary wounding mechanism is fragmentation. This is a good thing because without fragmentation these rounds otherwise would act like a ice pick and cause very little damage because of their small size.

Q. Does the 2,700 fps rule apply to all .223 and 5.56 ammo?

No.

Velocity is only one factor, however important. Bullet construction is another. M193 and M855 fragment because the bullets have thin copper (actually “gilding metal,” which is a copper alloy of roughly 90% copper and 10% zinc) jackets that are further weakened by a cannelure. It cannot be assumed that all bullets will fragment, or will fragment at the same velocity.

Many people wrongly assume that any ammo loaded with a 55gr FMJ bullet is the same as M193 ammo. This is false. Unless the ammo meets M193 specs, including both muzzle velocity and bullet construction, it can not be counted on to perform like M193.

So again I ask…if I can’t get military ammo, whose FMJ round should I buy?

Again from Ammo Oracle…

Q. What is “Ballistic Tip” ammo?

“Ballistic Tip” is actually a trademark of Nosler, who first started making plastic tipped bullets in 1985.

Though originally designed to prevent damage to the bullet nose when feeding (while the nose of a soft tip or hollow point might deform due during feeding to the soft lead content in the nose, a plastic tip bullet will maintain a consistent nose shape) today the primary advantage of a polymer tipped bullets is a high ballistic coefficient. The design also allows the center of gravity to be moved back, increasing in flight stability. This is the same design theory that gives hollow point match bullets better accuracy properties.

In terminal performance, ballistic tips are designed to work like wedges, mashed into the hollow point and inside the jacket on impact, initiating expansion theoretically, quickly and reliably.

Q. Is military ammo the best choice for defensive use?

M193 is probably the best choice for an all-around ammo selection, given its low price, wide availability, and the ability to be stabilized from any 5.56 rifle. For military-type operations, M193 should comprise the bulk of your 5.56mm ammo. However, other types of ammo may be better for a specific application, such as home defense or police work, or when using a 5.56mm gun with a very short barrel or when velocity is likely to be low.

For police-type work where a soft-point is desired, Winchester’s 64 grain PowerPoint (in the Super-X line) and PowerPoint Plus (Supreme line) are top performers.* It has the advantage of being less sensitive to velocity by relying on bullet expansion rather than fragmentation, and is more consistent over a longer range of velocities. It would also be a better choice for use in AR-type pistols and short-barreled rifles, where the short barrels impart much lower velocities on the bullets. The downsides of this round are: questionable stability in 1:12-twist rifles, a smaller wound channel compared to a fragmenting bullet, and a cost of 3-4 times as much as M193.

Q. But what about specialty commercial rounds, like TAP, hollowpoints, and softpoints? Aren’t they better than Mil-Spec ammo for defensive use?

It really depends what you are looking for. In general Soft Point, Jacketed Soft Point and Jacketed HollowPoint rounds use controlled expansion as a wounding mechanism, rather than fragmentation. The yawing effect of FMJ bullets is frustrated by JSP and JHP rounds because the nose flattens down on impact (like a mushroom) and moves the center of gravity forward on the bullet. As a result, the bullet doesn’t yaw, but instead gets its stability from the transfer of the center of gravity. Generally these rounds continue forward in tissue nose-first instead of trying to turn tail-first.

Some very light JSP or JHP rounds will still fragment because their jackets are so thin and their velocity is much higher (up to 3800 fps in 40gr rounds), but this does not necessarily make their wounding capacity more dramatic than M193 or M855 primarily because their penetration depth is much lower.

Hollow-point and ballistic-tip bullets are designed as varmint rounds, to expand quickly, making large, shallow wounds with relatively little penetration. These types of wounds aren’t likely to take an attacker out of the fight immediately, especially if you have to shoot through an arm or from the side. Most experts agree that at least 12 inches of penetration is required to reliably reach the vital organs, and most varmint bullets won’t penetrate more than 5 to 6 inches. Although some police departments use the Hornady TAP (“Tactical Application Police”) round, which is merely a hotter-loaded V-Max varmint round, the primary motivation for adopting this ammo is preventing over-penetration of both bad guys and of interior walls. It should be noted that many of these concerns are proving unfounded as testing on interior penetration is increasingly showing that 5.56 rounds are less of a overpenetration risk than even the 9mm handgun ammo that many departments deploy in submachineguns for interior raids.

The above passage seems to say that not only are HP’s and the V-max perhaps not the best choice, neither is the TAP round. My LEO friends seem to think the TAP round is the greatest thing since free donuts.

To wrap this up (at least for tonight)… I have a small supply (~650 rounds) of American Eagle 50gr flat base HP’s. I thought they would be an effective defense round. While I don’t wish to be shot with one, it seems perhaps this configuration is not ideal. They were inexpensive and I can always use this supply for training.

I have a few boxes of Black Hills - 100 rounds of 55gr FMJ red box and 100 rounds of 50gr V-max blue box. I also have 40 rounds of Hornady 55gr V-max. I bought the FMJ rounds for function testing and the V-max thinking they too would be a viable defense round.

I may or may not be able to pick up some TAP rounds. I have no idea where I can find M193 rounds, which seem to be better than the M855 for under 200 meters.

If I accept the above data as accurate, and I rely on a 55gr FMJ for defense, whose bullet more closely matches the military M193? If I go with an expanding round, will the AE expand reliably? Will the V-max penetrate enough?

Am I over thinking this, worrying about the “ammo du jour” more than shot placement? I finally learned to stop worrying about caliber and fancy handgun rounds, and just try and shoot straight. I don’t want to start all over again trying to find the best magic rifle bullet.

moonshot

I think your thinking of the 200RD Federal Power Shok 50gr HP value packs. Wally dosent sell BH.

The problem you are going to have is finding quality M193. Most often times it is .223 (meaning it is underpressured) with a 55gr FMJ bullet.

My suggestion still stands, buy what just about ever SWAT team and PD uses, Hornady TAP.

C4