I see so many people talk about carbines vs shotguns for self-defense (and this is not the point of this post, I appreciate both). The funny thing is that they always compare a $2500 Noveske SBR w/ a can and eotech to a stock-ish 870 or 500/590. I rarely see shotguns with red dots, and most of the light setups look sub-optimal, and like they’ve never been run hard. I think that they comparison should be 870p vs m16a1 or get a 14" Mossberg 590 w/ a surefire front end and an aimpoint micro and magpul furniture. I think that the capability differences would be MUCH smaller. I guess that since most “Operators” run something closer to the aforementioned Noveske, that’s what people want, but for ~$1000 one can have a very capable shotgun package.
I get that you’re talking about price points and accessories, and you would certainly add performance updating a metal bead to a RDS, but to me, the differences between the two are still compelling.
In my mind, to make a somewhat valid shotgun/AR style carbine comparison, you’d need to use a semi-auto shotgun with as big a magazine as possible. Same accessories like RDS, sling, light. Now, I think you’d have a closer comparison, but how much would that shotgun cost versus your $1600-2000 AR?
And then, I’m looking at stuff like reliability, penetration, maneuverability, weight, etc. and for me, the AR still comes out on top.
Surely, a shotgun is extremely effective at subduing violent creatures, both two and four legged. But for me, I will stick with the AR for the two legged ones who go bump in the night.
Just how I see it. YMMV.
Take Care,
Buzz
My $1600 Benelli M4 doesn’t hold a candle to my $900 6920…
In my opinion there are too many variables to rank one weapon platform over another for self defense. If I were getting jacked at a stoplight I wouldn’t want either long gun! I would be fine with a shotgun to defend myself within the confines of my home. More so if I lived in an urban setting with other family members in the home and neighbors close by. What are the chances of me having defend myself against more than one or two bad guys in my bedroom? Now if I woke up to find a dozen guys in my front yard burning crosses or Confederate flags I would greet them with the rifle! If I could have only one firearm it would be a handgun. In the end knowing how to use what you have is more important what you have. If the SHTF the Indian will be more important than the arrow.
Let me start by upfront saying I’m a shotgun lover and okay with the shotgun for home defense. I’m not sure I get your point with this analogy. It would seem to me that using current self-defense loads for the rifle - Hornady 55gr TAP - over penetration is not an issue. On the other hand, the shotgun, by design, presents projectiles in an expanding pattern to increase the likelihood of hits on moving targets at increasing ranges.
That spread, even at hallway ranges, makes an errant projectile more a possibility. My primary concern in that case would be striking another family member in the room, or the room immediately adjacent. I would be much less concerned with a pellet traveling though the exterior walls of a home and penetrating into a neighboring residence with the shotgun.
Law enforcement concern with shotgun over-penetration in urban areas largely revolved around two scenarios - 1) shootings in densely packed apartment complexes where penetration through interior walls would put the pellets into another apartment (in essence the same concern a resident has in their home in striking other family members within the residence); 2) shots fired from outside residences which penetrate lightly constructed exterior walls in the background.
Regarding red dot sights on shotguns - their primary advantages for shotguns exist in situations where the shotgun is used as a rifle, or in dim light situations where the shotgun’s bead is obscured and you don’t have a WML. The shotgun was designed to be a snap-shooting weapon. When mounted properly into the shoulder the shotgunner’s eye, the top of the receiver, or rib, and the bead are all aligned on the target, the shot can be stroked as soon as the stock hits the shoulder and touches the cheek. Serious skeet and trap shooters spend a lot of time, and in some cases big bucks, getting their shotguns fitted to perfect this alignment.
The addition of a red dot sight alters this eye, bead, target alignment and normally slows the shooter down because the red dot requires the shotgunner to alter their mount to find the elevated red dot. The shooter can adjust for this by addition of a stock designed to raise the head higher.
For killing things… with buckshot… within the shotgun’s effective combat range… beads are faster.
If I was going to put a red dot on a shotgun it would be a Burris Fast Fire with the Speed Bead mount:
http://www.burrisoptics.com/sights/speedbead-systems-family (read the features list on the right)
http://www.burrisoptics.com/sights/fastfire-series/fastfire-3
and a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d94Y894652M
So, like the thread title says, it really is apples to oranges.
JM .02
A good tritium bead, or even the stock bead, is more than sufficient for HD as long as it’s used in conjunction with a white light. For an LE shotgun, a red dot could certainly be an asset once range starts to become a factor. Light setups are usually sub-par, though, I’ll agree. I run an Inforce WML on a Magpul forend, and I think it’s head and shoulders better than many of the clamp setups. Full control of the light is a must, IMO.
But no matter how long the magazine extension or how populated the side saddle, you’re still working with a rounds-limited firearm that requires the user to do a lot of work, both in recoil management as well as cycling. To me, the shotgun v.s. carbine discussion comes down to what I can be most efficient with in less optimal situations. If I’m sleepy, sick, dealing with a pulled shoulder, etc., I know I can be more effective with an AR than a shotgun.
I have more faith in my abilities with the shotgun especially in a situation where fear & adrenaline are going to be factors…
Does that include reloading?
My shotgun is my middle-of-the-night backup for when I don’t have my contacts in.
No but if 10 rounds from a 12 ga didn’t solve my problem then 1 or 2 more rounds isn’t going to help.
I’m with you 100% on this one. The HEAT-style firefight in a house probably isn’t going to happen. If the Mexican mafia hits my house, it’s just probably my time. I carry a high-capacity pistol because semi-auto calibers suck at killing people, but my 6+1 590A1 is pretty definitive firepower, and I fully trust that it would make a home invader reconsider what he or she was doing in my home. The Bin Laden shooter handed the CIA lady an almost full mag for Pete’s sake.
QUOTE=derfarhar333;2150191]I have more faith in my abilities with the shotgun especially in a situation where fear & adrenaline are going to be factors…[/QUOTE]
I think the time and place for the shotgun may slowly be fading from view. I do appreciate the shotgun for what it can do and I still own three and two of them are set up for self defense.
I’m probably a bit older than most of you guys and when I was getting old enough to purchase my own guns the general consensus was that auto’s were unreliable and that the default there for was the 500 and the 870 was preferred over the 500.
Thankfully those times have passed we’ve come to a time and place where most semi auto shotguns are as reliable as pumps and clearly faster in most cases. I think the weakness in the shotgun may be the false sense of security it gives people.
I’ve seen a lot of people claim that the shotgun is the end all do all solution to any "bump in the night " problem. Those same folks will purchase a nice shotgun, may or may not fit it with improved sights or a light and set it in the corner as some sort of talisman against intruders. It just doesn’t work that way, you still have to train with the gun, train with the ammo you’ll use and practice reloads.
I’ve seen a lot of people fumble reloads or short stroke a pump and essentially jack the whole situation up so bad that it takes the weapon out of action for too long a time to be effective.
I’m not against the shotgun for defensive purposes, but if you’ve only got the time and money to make everyone in the home proficient in one or two guns, is the shotgun the correct choice?
YMMV.