Apex Tactical Forward Sitting Sear and Trigger Overview.

General Firearms Handguns - Semi Auto
1

I posted my thoughts on the Apex Forward Sitting Sear a few months ago but now the circle is complete (har) and i have one of Randy’s new triggers in hand.

Over the next couple of weeks i will be trying this trigger and sear combo in several different guns but i started the test in my 9C with Thumb Safety as i have a keen interest in running a short throw trigger with an active safety. To me, in a polymer gun this is theoretically as close to a 1911 as we are going to get. Did Randy achieve that goal? Read on!

Above is a picture of what comes in the kit.

1X Apex Tactical Trigger
1X Apex Tactical Forward Sitting Sear
1X Apex modified USB.
1X Apex USB Spring
1X Apex tapered trigger return spring
1X Apex Large sear spring
1X Talon Tactical striker block tool.

You will need the following:

1X Trigger bar
1X Trigger pin

Both of these parts can be salvaged from your existing trigger or purchased individually from S&W.

The install starts with the removal of essentially everything in your frame.

  1. Remove the two tapered pins in the frame and the locking block pin.
  2. Remove your sear housing
  3. Remove your takedown lever.
  4. Remove your locking block.
  5. Remove your slide lock
  6. Remove your trigger components.

From here you’re going to need to either press out the trigger pin or start the installation into your new Apex Trigger. Pick your poison and do what needs doing.

I STRONGLY recommend you PRESS the pin into the Apex Tactical Trigger from the LEFT to the RIGHT via bench vise and padded blocks/wood. Trying to hammer the pin in is going to end in a marred trigger and lots of cursing. Also, ensure that you’re pushing the pin in STRAIGHT the first time as its entirely possible to gall the aluminum. A little drop of penetrating oil goes a long way towards helping that pin slide in.

Now, having said this, one thing i noted was just how freaking HARD the Apex trigger is. Whatever they made the trigger out of is very sturdy (its aluminum, i dont know what grade) and the anodizing is absolutely top notch as i was unable to scratch the trigger or get it to gall despite my first attempt with a pin punch and hammer…yeah…dont ask. I realized very quickly that i would have to press the pin in rather than hammer. Hopefully this observation will help the rest of your folks.

One more recommendation. Press the pin in slowly until it is flush with the sides of the trigger and THEN press in completely with your trigger bar in position. Doing it this way will minimize the amount of tasks you need to do at once by freeing up your hands and concentration. Go SLOWLY, you will NOT want to have to hammer the pin out if you go too far resulting in the pin blocking the pathway for the trigger bar to sit in.

I will post some pictures of this shortly.

Once you’re done with this simply reverse your disassembly process and reinstall.

Now, before we get into impressions i will say that for ME in this particular instance the install was NOT plug and play. I had to tweak the trigger bar shepherds crook in order to get the sear to drop. What i will say is that for whatever reason, every single trigger bar ive ever gotten from Smith has always required tweaking for the sake of consistency so i was not particularly surprised by this.

Ok, moving along to the impressions:

  1. The trigger throw is SHORT. Break characteristics and overall throw when the sear is engaged is the SAME as the standard Apex Hard Sear.
  2. There is ZERO pre travel.
  3. There is ZERO over travel.

The trigger itself limits the pre travel and over travel by using the geometry of the frame, ie the strongest part. There is ZERO undue flex on the trigger bar which can lead to inconsistent trigger break qualities or walking trigger pins.

  1. Due to the fact that there is no hinge present the trigger feels deceptively short in its overall throw. The square face also rests the pad of my trigger finger squarely (har) and there was ZERO shifting of my trigger finger during rapid fire which is a definite good thing. Also, as an aside, the trigger safety on this particular design actually works whereas i find the stock M&P hinged trigger safety more of a formality than an actual functional safety

  2. The trigger tends to break a little farther to the rear than i would prefer but i do not believe this is actually what is happening. The user needs to keep in mind that there is NO hinge present in this design and the trigger itself is fatter than the stock trigger so the engagement point of the sear and the actual break point ARE indeed further forward than the standard Apex Hard Sear. Its not quite as far forward as a David Bowie LX trigger job or the jobs that ive performed on my guns but its desirable to me nonetheless.

Range Report:

I only had a chance to put 150 rounds through the setup in my 9c as im still actively shooting and abusing my Gen 4 G19 but my report is that the gun is flawless. The trigger break feels great normal, ie it is the same, standard Apex affair and that is definitely a good thing.

If i had to gripe about a few things i would say that this trigger is almost too good. Due to the design characteristics this trigger VERY closely mimics the throw of a 1911 which we all know encourages trigger slapping. The same can be said with this style of trigger. You can DEFINITELY make your hits ALOT easier and get away with ALOT more in regard to LACK of trigger control with this trigger.

Now, since there are no rules when it comes to a gunfight and competition is all about winning, this is hardly a bad thing so i cannot really count this as a true “negative”. For ME this is a negative as ive always been used to staging my trigger prior to breaking shots, especially at range. That slow, rolling press is what gives me accuracy at distance. Cranking away on a short throw trigger always makes things harder for ME when it comes to accuracy. IF i do my part and im paying 100% attention to my fundamentals then sure, a 1911 style trigger really shines but im not at a level where i can operate at 100% all of the time.

The only TRUE gripe that i have is the trigger safety. It definitely needs oil, or even grease as i felt it during firing much more so than i would have liked. Practically speaking this is a dumb gripe as its NOT going to tear your hand up, cause undue comfort or degrade your accuracy potential i just felt that it operated in an awkward manner and it wasnt for me. If it were a bit smoother in its operation i would strike this statement from the overview. Keep in mind, this is a subjective observation and probably me just being picky for the sake of being picky. I compare this to the “sproing” sound some people complain about when firing an AR15. Sorry but if your gun is “sproingy” and THAT is what you’re focusing on during firing, well, you’re DOING IT WRONG. My response to these styles of gripes is always “Dude, the sound of a gunshot is a hell of a lot more violent and obnoxious than the “sproing” of your action spring…get over it”.

Having said that, ill take a page from my book and get over it.

More pictures and video will be inbound. I am currently working on a comparison video between the Apex Hard Sear (DCAEK), my own Bowie LX inspired trigger work and Randy’s new Trigger Kit.

Randy hit this one out of the park and anyone looking for a short throw trigger would be wise to smash their keyboard as violently as possible until the webstore for Apex Tactical comes up and the trigger is resting comfortably in your shopping cart.

Any questions, feel free to ask!

2

Dammit. As a real 1911 freak, I’m enthralled. I want this.

3

This sounds like a good product. Too bad they dont make them for Glocks :smiley:

4

So I put the DCAEK kit in earlier this week and thought two things.

  1. This is an awesome trigger, except for for how far back the break is.
  2. After getting the trigger back in, I was glad I never had to do that again

Guess I was wrong on #2.

I noticed in the APEX website says that the new trigger is for competition. In your opinion, is that because if the short throw, or weight? Would it be OK for a CCW gun?

5

Strangely enough, the Apex DUTY Kit is far more appropriate for Duty/CCW use than the Apex Forward Sitting Sear and Trigger.

6

Apex wrote on their Facebook page that they’re working on a duty version of the FSS. IIRC it’s combination of both the short throw and the weight that make the FSS currently competition only.

7

Shrug.

I think training, mindset and experience level play alot into whether or not this is “duty ready”.

For the average police officer, absolutely not.

For the above average police officer that trains, is proficient and understands how their chosen weapons platform works, perhaps.

It all comes down to what the individual is comfortable with. Like ive said before and i will say again. This trigger is as close to a 1911 as we are going to get in a polymer gun. Now, having said this, there is no way in hell i would EVER CCW or theoretically run as a duty weapon (im not LE, hence the hypothetical) a 1911 without a safety.

The same goes for this style of trigger for a few reasons.

I personally like a BIT of pre travel or something in the system that i have to consciously attend to prior to the gun shot going off.

Let me elaborate.

Keep in mind i am speaking from a civilian perspective so these OPINIONS are not absolute statements.

Example 1.

The buzzer goes off, i have made a decision to shoot which means i have to do the following:

  1. I have made a commitment to drawing.
  2. As i begin my press out, my sights are on the target and my finger begins to stage the trigger.
  3. As my front sight settles, slightly before full extension i press through my take up and break my shot where i want it to go.

Example 2.

  1. I have made a commitment to drawing and engaging a lethal threat…or an evil cardboard man.
  2. As i begin my press out my sights are on the target and my finger comes in contact with the trigger.
  3. My safety is disengaged as my press out begins.
  4. My shot breaks when i see my front sight where i want to be on my target.

In each example, i am doing something CONSCIOUSLY before the trigger breaks and the gun discharges. In the case of example 1 i am taking up the slack. In the case of example 2 i am disengaging my safety.

Both of these criteria can be redacted IF i so choose to do so. If for whatever reason i decide that i CANNOT take that shot i merely let out the slack. If for whatever reason the target becomes obscured and the shot cannot be taken, i re engage my safety and orient my muzzle in a safe direction.

This is partly why for duty and CCW use most people advocate heavier triggers simply because you have to press and then almost push through the resistance to make you aware that you’re pressing that trigger and that your firearm is about to discharge.

With the FSS and trigger as is i would not be comfortable running it in a duty setup as i regard this puppy as “On or Off”. There is no in between, there is no staging the trigger. Now, this also comes back to the whole idea of some of the principle issues of gun safety, ie the four cardinal rules but perfection is illusory and mistakes happen. A trigger like this without a thumb safety removes some of the conscious thought involved in the process and takes away a margin of error so to speak.

This could be regarded as either a good or a bad thing but this is also why i said it comes down to the officers level of proficiency and why one cannot utter a statement like “approved for duty use”.

Having said all of this, the bottom line is that this is a superb trigger, one that will probably rock the gaming world as nothing like it exists. For duty use, if you have a thumb safety like i said earlier, i would be making plans to sell internal organs to get one of these.

I hope that answers some of the questions.

8

This piece looks awesome, thanks for the review!

Might switch out my M&P sear for the APEX one due to long fingers…

9

Magsz,

Thanks for your thoughts. My M&P has a safety, so I hadn’t even considered running a short take up safetyless gun. My main thought was that if someone picked up an M&P with the forward mod and didn’t know it and was caught unaware.

While I like the DCAEK, it feels like trigger finger is going to hit the webbing of thumb since the break is sofar rearwards.

Really excited to have a hi-cap 9mm 1911 at a third of the price of an STI and mags that I don’t have to go mideval on to work. Looking forward to seeing what Apex does tomake it Duty rated.

10

I installed the forward set sear and new aluminum non hinging trigger, it’s takes up is about 1/3-1/2 the distance until you feel the sear. I originally installed it with the trigger return spring that comes with it. I found it a bit heavy when dry firing so I installed a S&W factory trigger return spring. I used this gun for the VA/MD Section match (placed 4th B class in Limited, 23rd overall of 63 shooters in Limited) The gun ran 100% and both at the range and in the match I could run the gun a bit faster than this same gun with a Apex Duty/CCW kit. I’m also using the Apex RAM. I’m using a factory recoil spring and was using Magtech 180gr FMJ ammo which made 183.6PF at chrono (average velocity of 1020fps, I really need to start reloading!)

This is my S&W M&P40 Pro 5" gun with the Apex forward set sear and new aluminum trigger.




11

Have they already been shipping out? I ordered one the first day they were available and I haven’t gotten shipping confirmation yet…

12

Hi cktenders,

Robb, Magsz and 11 others were sent pre-production kits to test installation difficulty and performance. They are the “crash test dummies” if you will. Their feedback will help me iron out the end product and tutorial video to make installation as trouble free as possible- before you receive yours in a week or so.

Magsz pointed out that installation of the trigger bar/trigger connecting pin required more attention in order to prevent damage by trying to hammer the pin in. As a result of his feedback the kit you receive should have a new pin that is inserted 3/4 the way in. That way all you need to do is insert your trigger bar and press the pin in the rest of the way.

-Randy

13

Mags did a good review. Got my trigger kit as well and installed it on Sunday. As we all know (or should know), LOOOONG trigger pulls increase ones ability to flinch while pulling the trigger. This can be overcome by lots of training and trigger time. Most shooters don’t have the time or money for either (hence why many gravitate to the 1911).

The hinged trigger on the M&P often made me feel like I was NOT pulling the trigger straight to the rear. Part of the reason for this is because I have spent so many years running 1911’s (which are square to the frame and are short).

I installed the new trigger, striker block, forward sear, trigger return spring, plunger spring and S&W’s new trigger bar (is red at the tip or marked with the letter “H” for those that don’t know). The first dry fire was love and immediately made me think of a 1911 trigger.

Excited by the GREAT trigger feel, I went down to my range to shoot 100rds. Oh boy, was this thing fast. I was running the gun MUCH faster (and more accurately) than I have ever done before. In fact, I was running it so fast that my wife asked me what I was shooting. :ph34r:

The trigger did feel a little bit light to me so I measured it. Right around 2.15-3.05. Hmmm, why is it so light. Then I remembered that I had their competition striker spring in my gun. So I replaced that and measured the pull weight again. Right at 4LBS. Perfect.

Personally, I like my CCW and training guns to be between 4LBS and 5LBS. Apex has stiffer springs for those that need it over 5LBS (LE use).

My personal thought is that the average gun owner that really doesn’t “tinker” with his guns and have the right tools should not install this trigger group. As mags mentioned, you can screw some stuff up (especially on the trigger pin that holds the trigger bar in place).

We look forward to these kits coming out and will offer them already INSTALLED on new guns for those that are interested.

C4

14

I have a few question for any the three people in the thread that have used the FSS and trigger combo.

1.) Is the safety bar similar in feel to a Glocks or is it more subtle? I don’t like how much the bar on Glock trigger sticks out, it feels uncomfortable to me.

2.) (I guess this question is really only for Grant and Randy) Since I already have my gun and it sounds like the install might be out of comfort zone will either of you, Grant or Randy, be offering installation of this product if I send my gun to you? I bought the gun from G and R if that makes a difference.

Randy, it is really amazing what you have been able to turn out product wise for the m&p line. Every time I see you post I get excited. Thanks for your time and knowledge.

And thanks to Grant and Magsz for enduring what sounds to be a horrible testing experience. If you need a break from those terrible triggers just let me know.:smiley:

15

Alvin,

Its not as obtrusive as the Glock safety but this is coming from a guy that is not bothered in the least by the Glock trigger safety.

My gripes with the trigger safety bar are being addressed. Randy really is committed to making the absolute best product he can offer.

16

Less IMHO. Won’t even notice it.

2.) (I guess this question is really only for Grant and Randy) Since I already have my gun and it sounds like the install might be out of comfort zone will either of you, Grant or Randy, be offering installation of this product if I send my gun to you? I bought the gun from G and R if that makes a difference.

We now have a certified M&P armorer coming in to help me in the shop so we will be offering trigger and sight installs in the near future.

Not to speak for Randy and crew, but they can do everything that your M&P needs done to it X 10.

Randy, it is really amazing what you have been able to turn out product wise for the m&p line. Every time I see you post I get excited. Thanks for your time and knowledge.

Agree. Randy and crew has turned the M&P into a polymer gun that has a MUCH better trigger system than any other polymer gun out there.

And thanks to Grant and Magsz for enduring what sounds to be a horrible testing experience. If you need a break from those terrible triggers just let me know.:smiley:

Dude, let me tell you! My gun got so hot from all the mag dumps I was doing (and hitting what I was aiming at) that I had to set it down. The hours and ammo that this new trigger makes me want to waste is endless. It is a real burden to carry. :jester:

C4

17

2.) (I guess this question is really only for Grant and Randy) Since I already have my gun and it sounds like the install might be out of comfort zone will either of you, Grant or Randy, be offering installation of this product if I send my gun to you?

We would be happy to perform the installation. Since Grant is fully able to do the same, I suppose it boils down to what location is cheaper in terms of shipping.

-Randy

18

Probably a dumb question, but is the RAM compatible with this kit and if it is, does it even do/add anything to the overall package? About to place a pre-order and I am not sure of I should order a RAM.

19

Can you use it? Yes (I am). Do you need it? No.

C4

20

Thanks Magsz, Robb and Grant for the info and pictures. Makes it a lot easier to understand whats going on with these parts.